Whitworth destroy

[cincygrad]

BTW -- Can we get some PFF numbers on Zeitler and DeCastro?

 

[bengaldoug]

Zeitler +8.0
DeCastro +4.3

DeCastro, now healthy, is proving to be as advertised. I still am very happy to have Zeitler.

 

[futballiscool]

My (incomplete) list of picks we had that caused the most butthurt for some of our fans on the ESPN or SportsHoopla forums (so I'm obviously only talking about the internet age).

1) Andrew Whitworth -- Damn were there some pissed off folks. I forget who everyone wanted, but I think Whit was drafted a littler earlier than expected. We also had a great O-line the year before.

2) Jermaine Gresham -- Pretty even split between those that were happy that we finally drafted a tight end and those that were pissed that we didn't take Dez. Loss.

3) Leon Hall -- Buckeye butthurt. The anti-Michigan vibe was not helped by Chris Perry's tenure. I think we can all agree that Leon has lived up to the pick.

4) Chris Perry -- Everyone wanted Jackson. Everyone was right. Should be noted that we did get some extra pieces via the trade.

5) Andre Smith -- The consensus was that Tits was a bust in the making and Monroe was the safer pick. Monroe is now on his second team. But he does play LT.

6) Dre Kirkpatrick -- Many wanted David DeCastro. We took the extra pick which netted us Thompson and opted for Swag and Zeitler. Swag has sucked but Zietler and DeCastro is an interesting debate

Thoughts?

1-I actually don't remember the Whitworth pick's controversy (I was younger, still had a life, so I didnt follow the draft as closely as I do now). He had the credentials to be a 2nd rd pick. At that time our offense was elite and the defense was a sieve so I'm guessing that was a part of the objections. I'm sure I wanted some linebacker who's probably on the field 5 snaps a game on ST somewhere. Great forward-thinking pick though.. drafting highest rated player instead of a perceived need.


2- Everyone from NFL GMs to casual fans knew Bryant was an all pro talent and the best playmaker in the draft. He fell to the 20s for character reasons. With all of the problems that drafting character redflags had caused I still support the move. To put it into perspective, people were saying we could have drafted Bryant "and still picked Aaron Hernandez to be the new TE in the 3rd!" Those were gambles the Pats and Cowboys could make that the Bengals couldn't afford at the time. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I thought Gresham could be a bigtime TE so I liked the pick. He's not a bust, but he has nowhere near the potential I thought he did. It sucks that the Saints got the all time great, future HOF TE from that draft in the end of the third.

3. I loved this pick. Thought he was a top 10 talent drafted in the 2nd half of the first rd. Not only was it anti-Michigan, but in the game of his everyone watched (vs Ohio St) Ted Ginn torched him. He was an all american, ran in the 4.3s, and had good technique. We were lucky he was there.

4. They fucked that one up. They passed up Jackson for Perry. Also if they stayed at 17 in the first place, they could have drafted Wilfork. I know Jackson and Wilfork are hindsight is 20/20 thinking, but they really were the obvious picks at each of those spots.

5. I hated the Andre Smith pick. Thought he had a poor work ethic and lacked the agility to play LT. He actually is a lazy, road grading RT, but he's the best one in the league! I wanted Crabtree (good WR, but not special) or Eugene Monroe(serviceable LT). I had no idea that our franchise LT (Whitworth was already on the roster at the time)

6. I was in favor of DeCastro. I also didn't like Kirkpatrick's slow 40 time (there are exceptions, but it seems like an important tangible number for WRs. Zietler's great and the jury is still out on Kirkpatrick



I also remember BWOQ hating the Keith Rivers pick as much as I did. Who knew calling him "Brian Simmons 2.0" was overrating him at the time? I wanted to trade up for Sedrick Ellis

 

[DanBengalfan]

if we picked Graham, he wouldn't amount to much. we manage to keep Eifert clouded in obscurity because we have idiots running the show.

 

[flamingrey]

Dude blew his knee out last year...hardly a fair comparison.

Also, the Bengals OL> Pitt OL...so, it's nice to be getting help from capable players.

Anyone have the PFT ratings for Decastro and Zeitler on the year?

I think that does help as evidenced by Cook's play this year. But not sure how it impacts PFF's numbers.

The numbers may have been updated since Doug posted, but DeCastro overall is at +4.8 and Zeitler at +8.0.

I think DeCastro has also been slightly more consistent while Zeitler started the season strong, but has been trending downwards.

DeCastro's numbers: -0.2, +1.6, +1.7, +1.7, bye, 0.0
Zeitler's numbers: +3.8, +2.6, -2.3, +2.1, +1.3, and +0.5

DeCastro is a +1.4 in pass block, +1.5 in run block, and +0.5 in screen block.
Zeitler is a -1.3 in pass block, +8.9 in run block, and -0.5 in screen block.

DeCastro has 0 penalties, Zeitler 2.

Zeitler is a great run blocker (good for 2nd best Guard in the league), but DeCastro it appears is better at everything else.

 

[Be Weary of Query]

1-I actually don't remember the Whitworth pick's controversy (I was younger, still had a life, so I didnt follow the draft as closely as I do now). He had the credentials to be a 2nd rd pick. At that time our offense was elite and the defense was a sieve so I'm guessing that was a part of the objections. I'm sure I wanted some linebacker who's probably on the field 5 snaps a game on ST somewhere. Great forward-thinking pick though.. drafting highest rated player instead of a perceived need.


2- Everyone from NFL GMs to casual fans knew Bryant was an all pro talent and the best playmaker in the draft. He fell to the 20s for character reasons. With all of the problems that drafting character redflags had caused I still support the move. To put it into perspective, people were saying we could have drafted Bryant "and still picked Aaron Hernandez to be the new TE in the 3rd!" Those were gambles the Pats and Cowboys could make that the Bengals couldn't afford at the time. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I thought Gresham could be a bigtime TE so I liked the pick. He's not a bust, but he has nowhere near the potential I thought he did. It sucks that the Saints got the all time great, future HOF TE from that draft in the end of the third.

3. I loved this pick. Thought he was a top 10 talent drafted in the 2nd half of the first rd. Not only was it anti-Michigan, but in the game of his everyone watched (vs Ohio St) Ted Ginn torched him. He was an all american, ran in the 4.3s, and had good technique. We were lucky he was there.

4. They fucked that one up. They passed up Jackson for Perry. Also if they stayed at 17 in the first place, they could have drafted Wilfork. I know Jackson and Wilfork are hindsight is 20/20 thinking, but they really were the obvious picks at each of those spots.

5. I hated the Andre Smith pick. Thought he had a poor work ethic and lacked the agility to play LT. He actually is a lazy, road grading RT, but he's the best one in the league! I wanted Crabtree (good WR, but not special) or Eugene Monroe(serviceable LT). I had no idea that our franchise LT (Whitworth was already on the roster at the time)

6. I was in favor of DeCastro. I also didn't like Kirkpatrick's slow 40 time (there are exceptions, but it seems like an important tangible number for WRs. Zietler's great and the jury is still out on Kirkpatrick



I also remember BWOQ hating the Keith Rivers pick as much as I did. Who knew calling him "Brian Simmons 2.0" was overrating him at the time? I wanted to trade up for Sedrick Ellis

Good memory. I despised the pick at the time and it bore fruit. That said, that Draft was seriously lacking...especially prospects in the top ten.

1. Jake Long - Good but worthy of #1 overall?

2. Chris Long - Good but this high in the draft? Didn't post double digit sacks until his 4th year in the league.

3. Matt Ryan - should've been first overall to Miami

4. Darren McFadden - immense talent but hurt way too often

5. Glenn Dorsey - On his second team.

6. Vernon Gholston - Huge bust

7. Sedrick Ellis - Who I wanted in this draft. He surprisingly retired prior to this year after 5 seasons.

8. Derrick Harvey - Huge bust. Rumors were that Marvin wanted this guy. Ended up on the squad a couple years back and cut prior to the Mock game.

9. Keith Rivers - Yuck. He actually ended up helping the current squad in getting traded to the Giants. Bengals got a 5th round pick in the '12 Draft that they turned into George Iloka.

10. Jerod Mayo - Was considered a "reach" at the time. Best 'Backer in that draft.

 

[cincygrad]

Ugh.... That draft was horrible. At the time, people thought the Bengals grabbed the safest defensive player in the top 10. There were questions about Harvey and Gholston making the leap -- I guess they were warranted.

I thought Rivers started out okay, but he never looked the same after getting lit up by Ward.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I think that does help as evidenced by Cook's play this year. But not sure how it impacts PFF's numbers.

The numbers may have been updated since Doug posted, but DeCastro overall is at +4.8 and Zeitler at +8.0.

I think DeCastro has also been slightly more consistent while Zeitler started the season strong, but has been trending downwards.

DeCastro's numbers: -0.2, +1.6, +1.7, +1.7, bye, 0.0
Zeitler's numbers: +3.8, +2.6, -2.3, +2.1, +1.3, and +0.5

DeCastro is a +1.4 in pass block, +1.5 in run block, and +0.5 in screen block.
Zeitler is a -1.3 in pass block, +8.9 in run block, and -0.5 in screen block.

DeCastro has 0 penalties, Zeitler 2.

Zeitler is a great run blocker (good for 2nd best Guard in the league), but DeCastro it appears is better at everything else.

I'm not sure if having a better supporting cast can be quantified. Things like pre-snap communication and simply "knowing" what the guy next to you is going to do on certain twists/stunts. Those things come with time/experience.

 

[flamingrey]

DeCastro is now ranked as the 3rd best guard in the league (2nd best RG) by PFF. Overall, +11.3

Zeitler is ranked at 27 out of 72 with a +2.6.

DeCastro is +2.2 and +6.2 in pass block and run block, respectively.

Zeitler is -1.5 and +3.7 in pass block and run block, respectively.

 

[flamingrey]

Per PFF:

As a rookie, guard Kevin Zeitler’s strength was in his pass protection where he only allowed 16 pressures over 671 pass blocks. This year he has equaled his 16 pressures allowed, but has done so on just 375 pass blocks.

 

[cincygrad]

Interesting. Through 1.5 seasons, Zeitler has had the bigger impact (due to health), but trends are certainly starting to favor DeCastro.

The performance of Brandon Thompson in place of Geno will likely become a major factor in how we eventually evaluate the trade.

 

[Tubbs1518]

Decastro also has a much better center beside him which is huge.

 

[flamingrey]

You mean Fernando Velasco who PFF has ranked 25th out of 33 with an overall -3.9 grade?

 

[bengaldoug]

We all loved DeCastro coming into the draft. Last year he was slowed by injury. This year he is healthy and obviously trending upward. As for Zeitler, what's going on now might just be a temporary negative fluctuation. We won't really know until it plays out. I doubt that Zeitler suddenly started sucking. Maybe he's playing hurt and that's temporarily affecting his play. We picked up an extra draft pick by trading down instead of drafting DeCastro, so it was probably still a good move. Could also be just that Zeitler has had a couple of tough matchups recently while DeCastro didn't. I'll have to look into that possibility.

 

[bengaldoug]

Analyzing Zeitler's last few weeks, he was matched up vs Paul Soliei against the Dolphins, a guy I don't know much about, but he does have a solid +7.6 rating, 17th amongst tackles. Zeitler's grade that game was -0.6....the week before he was dealing with Muhummad Wilkerson, 4th among 3-4 defensive ends at +16.9, and before that he had to deal with Suh vs the Lions. His respective grades of -2.8 and -2.0 can probably be explained by extremely tough competition. We'll see where he goes now, but I can't imagine his future matchups being much tougher.

 

[flamingrey]

For what it's worth, DeCastro had a 0.0 grade against the same matchup where Zeitler was a -2.8 (2 weeks apart).

Things are not trending in Zeitler's favor. By the end of the season, things (competition) will average out.

 

[bengaldoug]

Whit doing his Anthony Munoz imitation.

Any questions?