What went wrong in 2013

[CatsTopPac]

ERA could be misleading for a one year span, sure. But if it's 3+ years with an ERA closer to 4 than 3 than you should NOT be considered an Ace. Simple as that.

Well then it's a good thing he went 2.16, 3.48, 2.67

I really think he is hitting his stride, and will continue to do so in LA. He really wanted to pitch for the Dodgers, and with all the pressure of carrying a team which was on him in KC and Mil, he can be comfortable with Kershaw. I think he's going to stay under about 3.10 for years to come.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Well then it's a good thing he went 2.16, 3.48, 2.67

I really think he is hitting his stride, and will continue to do so in LA. He really wanted to pitch for the Dodgers, and with all the pressure of carrying a team which was on him in KC and Mil, he can be comfortable with Kershaw. I think he's going to stay under about 3.10 for years to come.

2010- 4.17 ERA
2011- 3.83 ERA
2012- 3.48 ERA



At least he's improving each year... but he still hasn't been an ace since 2009. That's all I'm saying sir.

 

[Villain]

ERA could be misleading for a one year span, sure. But if it's 3+ years with an ERA closer to 4 than 3 than you should NOT be considered an Ace. Simple as that.

Well, that's why Kershaw is the ace. Honestly, I'm not too big on pitcher roles. Who's the "ace" or who's the "closer" blah blah blah. It's just a title. Take the Tigers, for example. They have one of the best rotations in baseball. Who's the "ace" ...? Is it Verlander? He was probably the third best arm in that rotation this year. They still won their division because they didn't put all their eggs in one basket and they were smart enough to pay Anibal Sanchez this winter.

There are only so many guys like Felix Hernandez, Kershaw, Cliff Lee, and so on. You have to make do with what else is out there to have balance and staying power over the course of 162 game - A's do that very well. They don't have an ace and they traded away a guy who would've been (Gio Gonzalez). Look at the A's and then look at the Nationals.

Having depth is more important than having one guy who's your ace. Same with the bullpen. I'm not crazy about strapping my best relief pitcher to the 9th inning because he needs to CLOSE the game. I want my best arm to be used when he's needed most. If that inning is the 8th, then what are you waiting for? Get him in there to get the meat of the order down. The hitter/pitcher matchups are more crucial to me than which inning it is.

ERA can be heavily influenced by defense... It's not a secret that Grienke was backed by one of the worst fielding teams in MLB when he was on the Brewers. He still managed to put up solid numbers, despite what you will derive from his ERA.

You can't just look at one end-all-be-all figure and base your entire judgement of a player on that. People love to do that with ERA. ERA is not a bad stat, it's just not the best indicator.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

He's been in the league since 2004 and he's only had two years with a sub 3 ERA. If he has another great year next year then I'll be convinced.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Well, that's why Kershaw is the ace. Honestly, I'm not too big on pitcher roles. Who's the "ace" or who's the "closer" blah blah blah. It's just a title. Take the Tigers, for example. They have one of the best rotations in baseball. Who's the "ace" ...? Is it Verlander? He was probably the third best arm in that rotation this year. They still won their division because they didn't put all their eggs in one basket and they were smart enough to pay Anibal Sanchez this winter.

There are only so many guys like Felix Hernandez, Kershaw, Cliff Lee, and so on. You have to make do with what else is out there to have balance and staying power over the course of 162 game - A's do that very well. They don't have an ace and they traded away a guy who would've been (Gio Gonzalez). Look at the A's and then look at the Nationals.

Having depth is more important than having one guy who's your ace. Same with the bullpen. I'm not crazy about strapping my best relief pitcher to the 9th inning because he needs to CLOSE the game. I want my best arm to be used when he's needed most. If that inning is the 8th, then what are you waiting for? Get him in there to get the meat of the order down. The hitter/pitcher matchups are more crucial to me than which inning it is.

ERA can be heavily influenced by defense... It's not a secret that Grienke was backed by one of the worst fielding teams in MLB when he was on the Brewers. He still managed to put up solid numbers, despite what you will derive from his ERA.

You can't just look at one end-all-be-all figure and base your entire judgement of a player on that. People love to do that with ERA. ERA is not a bad stat, it's just not the best indicator.

Look, I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher. He's good... I just think people that label him as an ace are a little bit off. He hasn't really pitched like one for a long period of time (until this year). He was a good signing for you guys obviously... and I don't just look at ERA as a main indicator when judging a pitcher but it's a very telling statistic for me. People were showing Kershaw tons of love because of his impressive ERA this year, right? And for good reason... it's an important statistic.

 

[CatsTopPac]

2010- 4.17 ERA
2011- 3.83 ERA
2012- 3.48 ERA

Hahaha, you're absolutely right, and this year he is 2.67

Like you said, his ERA is dropping dramatically. Again, I think surrounded by Kershaw and Ryu, and if they can find another two pitcher who can stay under 3.50 out of Capuano, Volquez, Nolasco, Billingsly, Beckett, and Lilly, I think LA is in great shape, and Greinke is comfortable nestled in the middle of it all, and can go to work every 5 starts with no pressure, worries, and will be primed to remain strong in the rotation.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I think ERA is a very important stat, personally. It's not the end all be all, but it's up there with WHIP. I think the beauty is that we don't need him to be an ace. And we can afford to pay him ace pay, because for us, that's #2 pay. I get what you are saying, and I agree for the most part. I just think that he will be pretty special for the Dodgers - with better years than he's ever put together.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I also know that Johan, King Felix, and Lee are all paid more, and he's done better this year than all of them.

 

[Villain]

Look, I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher. He's good... I just think people that label him as an ace are a little bit off. He hasn't really pitched like one for a long period of time (until this year). He was a good signing for you guys obviously... and I don't just look at ERA as a main indicator when judging a pitcher but it's a very telling statistic for me. People were showing Kershaw tons of love because of his impressive ERA this year, right? And for good reason... it's an important statistic.

Okay. Let's put Greinke into perspective, shall we?

Since 2009:

5th in WAR
6th in FIP
12th in K%
10th in K/BB
8th in SIERA (my favorite version of ERA - takes more into account)

Since you love ERA so much (can't blame you, it's not useless even if it is becoming obsolete as a raw statistic), I'll include that for you. His ERA for this time period (2009-present) - 3.25. Is that below your magic threshold of 2.99? No. But I'll tell you how it ranks among other pitchers during those years: good enough to be the 17th best in baseball.

A handful of names who had worse ERAs than Greinke: Yu Darvish, Mat Latos, Cole Hamels, Hiroki Kuroda, and CC Sabathia.

How many of those guys would you consider to be an ace?