What Was So "Great" About Dick Vermeil? (Apologies in advance.)

[Caynine29]

Fisher is a far cry better than the last two head coaches the Rams have had but Vermeil is the man. He had that team hating him the first season because he was a hard ass. If you got out of line or missed your block you heard about it from him. Like Retro said just ask Farr what he thought of Vermeil. But when the team started to dominate the players were made into believers.

Nothing wrong with being a "hard-ass" when it's called for. Every coach does it. Even Jeff Fisher. But, the Rams hated Vermeil the first two seasons because he took it overboard. It was the very reason they were continuing to lose. He was running his players into the ground during notoriously long and grueling practices and it showed on the field come game day. Players were either getting injured, or running out of steam before halftime. The players weren't "made into believers"... in fact, they nearly mutinied. It was 1999 when Vermeil realized that his hardcore drill instructor routine was actually detrimental to the team. So, he changed his ways, lightened up, made himself more accessible to his players and the rest is history.

Another interesting fact I did not realize... on the note of "coaching staff selections"... Dick Vermeil actually fired (then wide receivers coach) Mike Martz when he arrived in St. Louis, so he could bring in his own staff. He only brought Martz back in '99, at the request of Rams team president, John Shaw.

 

[Rambunctious]

"Another interesting fact I did not realize... on the note of "coaching staff selections"... Dick Vermeil actually fired (then wide receivers coach) Mike Martz when he arrived in St. Louis, so he could bring in his own staff. He only brought Martz back in '99, at the request of Rams team president, John Shaw."[/QUOTE]

I did not know that. Very interesting.

 

[Smed55]

Yes... I'm well aware that the title itself is sacrilege in St. Louis. But, I assure you, this is not a thread designed to bash the man responsible for that Lombardi Trophy in the lobby at Rams Park. Best believe that as a nearly 30 year Ram fan, I LOVE Vermeil! However, during a recent debate on our current leadership, I was informed that comparing Vermeil to Jeff Fisher was "a mockery". Well, in St. Louis (for good reason), that may very well be true. But, in the broad landscape NFL history... it's only so in a mid-western nostalgic sense. Was Vermeil really that much better of an NFL head coach than Fisher is? Well... signs point to "no".

First of all, let's look at their respective career numbers.

Dick Vermeil
-W-L: 120-109 (.524)
-Division Championships: 4 (2 PHI, 1 STL, 1 KC) Avg. Divisional rank:2.8
-Conference Championships: 2 (1 PHI, 1 STL)
-Super Bowl Record: 1-

Jeff Fisher
-W-L: 154-135-1 (.533)
-Division Championships: 4 (HOU/TEN) Avg Divisional rank: 2.6
-Conference Championships: 1 (HOU/TEN)
-Super Bowl Record: 0-1

Not a whole lot of separation there. Excluding the Super Bowl win, neither was much more remarkable than the other. It should be noted that Vermeil is now retired, after a 5 year, 44-36 stint with the Chiefs and therefore, cannot win any more championships. Fisher is still active and attempting to make the Rams his legacy. The crux of my argument, though, wasn't that one was any better than the other, but rather that the Rams' coaching situation was nearly identical following '98 as it is now. What sprung the aforementioned debate, was the notion that due to his history, Fisher was no good for the Rams and should be shown the

door, less than two years into the massive reclamation project known as the 2012 St. Louis Rams. The similarities between Fisher and Vermeil's path to St. Louis are actually pretty astounding. How soon we forget that Rams fans were calling for Vermeil's head prior to the '99 season, just as some are before Fisher's second season hasn't even drawn to a close.

Now, let's look at the first two years of both coaches' stints in St. Louis (even though Fisher's will obviously be incomplete) and you'll see why, even beyond the fact that changing out coaches in such a brief period of time is a terrible idea, but that in St. Louis, that should be more evident than just about anywhere else.

Dick Vermeil (1997-1998 Rams)
Rams 1996 Record: 6-10
W-L: 9-23 (.281
Jeff Fisher (2012-2013 Rams)[/B



Rams 2011 Record: 2-14
W-L:12-15-1 (.444)

Vermeil actually took the team backwards in his first two years (5-11 in '97 and 4-12 in '98) and we're dogging Fisher for a 5 win improvement in year one?? Even if Fisher losses out the rest of this season, he'll still have a higher win percentage (.390) than Vermeil did in his first two years. Prior to their 3rd year in St. Louis, however, both had 4 division titles, both had 1 Conference championship andboth had been to a Super Bowl and lost.

Now, of course... unless you believe in the absolute of "history repeating", this isn't to say that Fisher will automatically win a Super Bowl next year. But, it does make one wonder why the comparison between Vermeil and Fisher would be so ludicrous, after all? And if we're ready to place Vermeil in the pantheon of St. Louis sports legends, then why wouldn't we cut Fisher just a little bit of slack during a complete overhaul, when every sign points to the fact that he's actually improving the team?

I have to agree with you, I've wanted to bring this up, but didn't want to rile anyone's feathers!

While I think Vermeil is a good coach, I feel he "ain't" all that! I will give him credit for hiring Martz and Lovie, but he got real lucky when Trent Green got hurt. We will never know if Green would have had a great year with that team, but I seriously don't see him playing as well as Warner did!

And actually I feel Vermeil underachieved, with the team we had back then, they should have won 2 or 3 Super Bowls, that team was stacked!!! Maybe, maybe not, but I think Linehan and Spags couldn't have f'ed up that team, although if anybody could, it would have been them.

Again, with that team, any average coach should have taken them to the Super Bowl!

As always, just saying!!!!!!!

 

[ozarkram]

I have to agree with you, I've wanted to bring this up, but didn't want to rile anyone's feathers!

While I think Vermeil is a good coach, I feel he "ain't" all that! I will give him credit for hiring Martz and Lovie, but he got real lucky when Trent Green got hurt. We will never know if Green would have had a great year with that team, but I seriously don't see him playing as well as Warner did!

And actually I feel Vermeil underachieved, with the team we had back then, they should have won 2 or 3 Super Bowls, that team was stacked!!! Maybe, maybe not, but I think Linehan and Spags couldn't have f'ed up that team, although if anybody could, it would have been them.

Again, with that team, any average coach should have taken them to the Super Bowl!

As always, just saying!!!!!!!

That sounds about right.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

Let me ask you something. Who exactly was it that assembled the team that you say could have been coached by anybody. Who assembled the coaching staff? And if it's true that anybody could have coached this team, wasn't it Martz who took over this team and underachieved after Vermeil left? So much for that theory, want to venture another asinine remark? Now say what you want about Martz, but he was also better than what we've got now. Nobody is claiming Vermeil was a god, and every coach in the game makes mistakes. But the fact is that Vermeil knew when to timely acquiesce to his other coaches and management. That is still a conscious deliberate decision on his part.

If there is a single one of you that would make a choice of Fisher over Vermeil as coach of their team, my advice is to seek psychiatric attention. They can do amazing things today to help people like you.

 

[ozarkram]

What you mean Junior Sample couldn't have coached that team to a SB. Darn.

 

[Retroram52]

Hey Boss429. You might want to tone down your value judgments on other people's beliefs such as using words like "asinine" and "nuts" (on another thread). I know these are mild but it leads to inevitable escalations and then we have people getting restricted. Make your points and leave the value judgments out. Thanks.

 

[ozarkram]

Not arguing with you retro but don't you think this thread itself was designed to get just such a reaction. The whys and where fores I don't know. But it seems to me if you go onto a Rams board and take a shot at coach V you are trying to get a reaction probably negative. Because opinions run so deep for the guy. Just an observation.

 

[Retroram52]

I agree ozark but you can get and give reactions without the value judgments. Vitamike set up a thread in the penalty box for that kind of thing and that is where that sort of approach should be employed.

 

[ozarkram]

Very good. There is no middle ground when it comes to coach V. Thanks.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

My intention is not to insult anybody Retro. But my intention is to be sarcastic or cynical or satirical as the case may be. The "nuts" comment in the other thread goes along with the whole parody of the thread theme.

And I believe Ozark does make a valid point...the whole point of this board is to have some lively debate is it not? Trying to keep everything "politically correct" isn't really conducive to that aim eh?

In any case apologies to anyone thin-skinned that was offended. I would submit that some of the language is more offensive on this site than the content.

 

[Retroram52]

Accepted Boss429.

 

[Retroram52]

I am not trying to be PC. Just trying to keep everybody here and posting.

 

[Smed55]

Let me ask you something. Who exactly was it that assembled the team that you say could have been coached by anybody. Who assembled the coaching staff? And if it's true that anybody could have coached this team, wasn't it Martz who took over this team and underachieved after Vermeil left? So much for that theory, want to venture another asinine remark? Now say what you want about Martz, but he was also better than what we've got now. Nobody is claiming Vermeil was a god, and every coach in the game makes mistakes. But the fact is that Vermeil knew when to timely acquiesce to his other coaches and management. That is still a conscious deliberate decision on his part.

If there is a single one of you that would make a choice of Fisher over Vermeil as coach of their team, my advice is to seek psychiatric attention. They can do amazing things today to help people like you.

First off Boss, as Retro says, some people may be offended by being called an ass! I'm not, but I could call some of your remarks assine "but I won't"!

If you read carefully, I did give Vermeil credit for his coaching hires! As far as your remarks about "who assembled that team" Vermeil did, so he's a good judge of talent, doesn't make him a good coach. He had some decent Eagle teams he did nothing with!

I also was being "somewhat" sarcastic about "anybody" being able to coach that team, obviously that's not true, but given the team he had, yes I believe an average coach (not any, but some) could have done the same thing. Hey, my opinion!

I realize he retired immediately after that, maybe he didn't want to chance not "coaching" that team to the Super Bowl again, maybe he thought Warner was a one hit wonder, I don't know, again neither do you!

My point is he had a great team, maybe even better than a great team, and we almost didnt win the Super
Bowl, against, in my opinion a far lesser team that shouldn't have even been in the SB in my opinion, I still think the "Music City Miracle"" was a joke!

Again, all my opinions, doesn't make them assine remarks, and by calling them assine remarks that doesn't mean you are correct, just means that's your opinion, and that's all it is!

And, no I don't really like Fisher, so I wouldnt favor him over Vermeil one way or the other. There are only a
Handful of truly great coaches, and I think we all know who they are!

 

[Smed55]

You do realize Retro, that Boss's apology is offending thin skinned people!

 

[Retroram52]

LOLOL!! Yea Smed, I get that one!

 

[ozarkram]

Well atleast we can all agree on the value of an opinion.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

The thing most impressive thing with Vermeil was he came out of the booth after a long term stint and won a title...Joe Gibbs, whom I think is a top 5 HC alltime couldn't do that. You just don't see that too often.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

Smed55, I think you need to know what the word asinine means before you accuse anybody of calling anybody else an ass. Please, look it up......I'll wait. Now to address your other comments. Vermeil had some mediocre Eagles teams that he did some great things with...and I say that with great difficulty because I hate the Eagles and Patriots more than the Taliban. ATL96Steeler also makes an excellent point that I hadn't even thought of...that Vermeil came out of the booth to win a championship.

And again I beg to differ with you on the Titans team that played the Rams in the SB. They beat an excellent Jacksonville team that finished 13-3 and dominated the AFC that year. And they beat them THREE times, including in the AFC championship. They were loaded with talent on offense, but were especially formidable on defense. I could make an argument that Fisher underachieved with them! The next year they won the division but were embarrassed in the playoffs by the Ravens. Fisher has a history of choking in big games as well.

You can have Fisher and I'll take Vermeil. I suspect I am not going to change your mind, and you certainly aren't going to change mine. But I think history will determine who the better coach is. And Vermeil will be in the Hall of Fame maybe not because he was inducted, but for winning a SB. Perhaps Fisher will be there too if he wins a SB, but I suspect he'll get in another way instead......by buying a ticket.

 

[Smed55]

Smed55, I think you need to know what the word asinine means before you accuse anybody of calling anybody else an ass. Please, look it up......I'll wait. Now to address your other comments. Vermeil had some mediocre Eagles teams that he did some great things with...and I say thatwith great difficulty because I hate the Eagles and Patriots more than the Taliban. ATL96Steeler also makes
an excellent point that I hadn't even thought of...that Vermeil came out of the booth to win a championship
And again I beg to differ with you on the Titans team that played the Rams in the SB. They beat anexcellent Jacksonville team that finished 13-3 and dominated the AFC that year. And they beat them THREE
times, including in the AFC championship. They were loaded with talent on offense, but were especially formidable on defense. I could make an argument that Fisher underachieved with them! The next year they won the division but were embarrassed in the playoffs by the Ravens. Fisher has a history of choking in big games as well.

You can have Fisher and I'll take Vermeil. I suspect I am not going to change your mind, and you certainly aren't going to change mine. But I think history will determine who the better coach is. And Vermeil will be
in the Hall of Fame maybe not because he was inducted, but for winning a SB. Perhaps Fisher will be there too if he wins a SB, but I suspect he'll get in another way instead......by buying a ticket.

Boss, I know what the definition of asinine is, I can't read your mind, but it's just a way of saying you think someone is saying something stupid ( in your opinion) without actually saying it! , are you now calling me stupid, in the same backhanded way?

You say Vermeil had mediocre teams, I grew up in that era and the Eagles were pretty good, loved Harold Carmicheal, you would think A smart coach like Vermeil would have taken advantage of a 6'8" stud WR more than he did, Wilbert Montgomery was a good RB, and Jaws was a decent QB, they always had a good defense. He had better than mediocre teams, look it up----I'll wait! (see how that remark can also be construed as being an asinine way of saying , see, I'm right)

He also had some good teams with KC, he had arguably the best running back in the league in Preist Holmes, A TE by the name of Tony Gonzalez, and our own Trent Green had a couple of Really good years there also, look it up, I'll wait!

Please also tell me where I said I would take Fisher over Vermeil? I'm pretty sure I said I don't care for Fisher, and I didn't like the hire when it happened!

As far as Vermeil making it to the HOF, a Super Bowl win does not get you in, he won 52% of his games, that will not get him in!

I enjoy "most" of your posts, but as Retro keeps telling people, there are better ways of getting your point across. There will always be counterpoints to everyone's points!