Was Gunther to blame?

[LPinSLC]

A year removed from Cunningham at DC, was he a scapegoat? What are your opinions of GC? Was he a pawn? Was he incompetent? What say you?

 

[LPinSLC]

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I said that I'm not putting in all on him. Having two cornerbacks that can cover made a huge difference. Our nickel back that sucked last year was as effective as our starters for much of Gunny's tenure. For most of his tenure he had one terrible and one ok safety, he had all terrible cornerbacks. One average linebacker and one good one. One above average defensive end, one average DT and one great DT.

I would argue that every position is better than it was for most of Gunny's tenure. He's over the hill and out of coaching for a reason, but this unit is more talented than it was for most of his watch.

 

[LPinSLC]

This is my remedy for a double post.

 

[LPinSLC]

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I said that I'm not putting in all on him. Having two cornerbacks that can cover made a huge difference. Our nickel back that sucked last year was as effective as our starters for much of Gunny's tenure. For most of his tenure he had one terrible and one ok safety, he had all terrible cornerbacks. One average linebacker and one good one. One above average defensive end, one average DT and one great DT.

I would argue that every position is better than it was for most of Gunny's tenure. He's over the hill and out of coaching for a reason, but this unit is more talented than it was for most of his watch.

From 0-16, I don't hold that against any of the coaches. The cupboards were bare and the results for the immediate seasons following that debacle were understandable.

From Gunthers last season to Austins first, there was very little change. Mathis was a year older but so was Slay. Slay improved dramatically with a full off season and substantially increased playing time. The addition of Digs in place of an oft injured Delmas was an improvement as well. He didn't stay healthy either but had an impact when he was. The secondary as a whole showed improvement.

Outside of the addition of Ihedigbo and the improved play of Slay, the roster changed very little.

Austin did wonders with what he had. Injury after injury and it truly was the next man up, plug and play that showed very little drop off.

Is that an indictment on Gunther, strong praise for Austin, or a combination of both?

 

[LPinSLC]

After the coaching changes many people assured me that Gunther was a puppet for Schwartz. Schwartz takes a DC position in Buffalo and has great success. Austin takes over a very similar roster and turns that roster into the #2 defense in the NFL.

Am I biased because I despised the Gunther hire from the beginning or am I vindicated?

Would like to hear everyones opinions.

 

[Quackerjacked]

I'm the biggest Gunny apologist and I'll still admit he didn't utilize the talent. The switch to Buffalo doesn't show much for Schwartz IMO. Their front 7 was probably better than ours, and their back end might be better too. If they weren't a top 10 unit everyone would be calling for his head.

I just know how mad I was watching our guys being unable to even play simple stuff. Watching Delmas jump short routes. Our OLB and CB couldn't run man and couldn't run a proper flat zone.

In his last year they were 6th against the run and 23th against the pass, and 16th overall. That was with an offense that turned the ball over and had less ball control.

I'm saying that they weren't as bad in 2013 as many think they are, and we were victimized by great pass offenses this year. I honestly think that with Gunny still in charge we hover around a top 10 unit this year.

 

[LPinSLC]

I'm the biggest Gunny apologist and I'll still admit he didn't utilize the talent. The switch to Buffalo doesn't show much for Schwartz IMO. Their front 7 was probably better than ours, and their back end might be better too. If they weren't a top 10 unit everyone would be calling for his head.

I just know how mad I was watching our guys being unable to even play simple stuff. Watching Delmas jump short routes. Our OLB and CB couldn't run man and couldn't run a proper flat zone.

In his last year they were 6th against the run and 23th against the pass, and 16th overall. That was with an offense that turned the ball over and had less ball control.

I'm saying that they weren't as bad in 2013 as many think they are, and we were victimized by great pass offenses this year. I honestly think that with Gunny still in charge we hover around a top 10 unit this year.

I agree that the offense(Stafford) left the defense in the mud all too often in 2013 and their ranking was a bit misleading.

You say top 10, I'll concede that for arguments sake. Is the jump from 10 to 2 about Austin being great or Cunningham not being great?

 

[LPinSLC]

You say Buffalo probably had the better front 7. With a DT rotation of Suh, Fairly, and Mosley at DT, include Ansah at end, where was Buffalo better on this unit? Levy, Tulloch(pre-injury), Whitehead, and Palmer rounding out the LB's, who was better, a push, or lesser in your opinion?

I disagree but am curious to hear your perspective apples to apples.

 

[Quackerjacked]

On their D line Darius isn't much of a drop off from Suh, Wililams is better than Mosely, and Williams in better than Ansah. Jones and whoever their other DE is probably a wash. Brandon Spikes is way better than Whitehead at ILB, while Levy outclasses their OLB.

 

[broncosmitty]

The Bills D woulda been crazy if Alonso didn't get hurt.

 

[Quackerjacked]

I blame Gunny and credit Austin, but I don't think that Gunny was a bumblefuck or that Austin is the best thing since sliced bread. Even though I think Austin is pretty damned good.

 

[LionsWhyMe]

Your not wrong about Jim Schwartz having a hand in what Gunther Cunningham did... I can recall Twentyman writing a piece about those two going over what's in and what's out every Monday after a game and doin' some tweaking to the defensive scheme during the off-season.

Jim Schwartz philosophy or flexibility was through Gunther Cunningham with the Lions, but a direct route at Buffalo.

Just about all of Teryl Austin career has been with Defensive Backs or Secondary which was a Lions weakness.

I believe the Bills would've went 8 - 8 for the season had Brady played the 2nd half of the final game of the season. The Bills defeated everyone in the NFC North (Schwartz's input ? ) but lost to everyone in the AFC West (Raiders).

 

[Old Lion]

I blame him and Shwartz for most of the struggles. Give him credit for finding a way to make it work in the second half of last year by adjusting to a nickel base

 

[TwoCents22]

I think it was the accumulation of all things mentioned. Upgraded secondary, progression at LB, better depth. Austin was probably the biggest factor, though. Each thing, independently, probably accounts for slight upgrades, but all together provided a huge increase in production.

 

[Coach_Ed_LPW]

A year removed from Cunningham at DC, was he a scapegoat? What are your opinions of GC? Was he a pawn? Was he incompetent? What say you?

I don't think he was incompetent...but I think he believed in a system that did not work with the personel he had. We never pressured the QB in his time here....more over we never tricked offenses...they knew we were rushing 4 and dropping 7...they gameplanned for it, picked us apart.

 

[TBBishop]

I think that Schwartz wanted to run the Wide 9 regardless of personnel and had Gunther been able to deviate from Schwartz's plan the defenses could have been better. Outside of Suh we simply didn't have the Dline talent to get consistant pressure and we should have been utilizing the blitz. If Gunther had complete control he would have blitzed I believe.

 

[jdwills126]

The defenses biggest problem was talent.

Ansah, Slay, Whitehead,Quinn, and a few others were either not here or had not developed. Suh and Levy were the only legit playmakers.

Tulloch and I do like him is probably overrated, Delmas could not stay on the field, and the secondary in general had a revolving door.

Another seldom mention was Detroit's offense didn't turn the ball over last season like they had in the past and put the defense in bad positions.

 

[LPinSLC]

Apologists. Look at at the truth. It's Obvious. The easier belief is that a former secondary coach, first time DC, virtually same roster Austin is the Messiah?...

Throw out whatever allegiance you feel to this has been and acknowledge the truth. Gunther was a fucking bum.

 

[tpaulus_2]

He was one of those "figure head" coordinators who held the title, but the head coach (Schwartzhole) was calling the plays.

I think the vanilla system- leaving the CBs and LBs and DEs and DTs in the exact same spot/ side of the field on every play, no matter what the opposing offense showed, is what killed us on D during the Schwartz tenure. Sticking stubbornly to the wide-9 also hurt us badly; that scheme is all but useless against power running teams.

I think Gunther was basically brought in to be Jimmy's right hand man on the defense and just re-enforce his scheme during practice and games.

 

[tpaulus_2]

On their D line Darius isn't much of a drop off from Suh, Wililams is better than Mosely, and Williams in better than Ansah. Jones and whoever their other DE is probably a wash. Brandon Spikes is way better than Whitehead at ILB, while Levy outclasses their OLB.

Say whaaat?!

You must be confusing him with someone who is actually a good MLB, I think.

Whitehead outproduced Spikes by a ton this year, and Whitehead's totals this year match up favorably with any season Spikes has had. The only year he was close to as good as Whitehead was this year was in 2012. Whitehead had as many INTs in a single game this year as Spikes has in his career.

I'm not saying Whithead is the shit based on just one year, but Spikes really isn't very good overall. Whitehead is the far superior athlete, and based on what he showed this year against what Spikes has shown in his five year career I'll take Whitehead every time if given a choice between the two...