Top 32 tournament SS Banks vs Jeter

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Shortstop Bracket is:

1 H Wagner 8
32 N Garciaparra 0

16 PW Reese 3
17 L Boudreau 6

8 B Dahlen 8
25 A Fletcher 1

9 L Appling 8
24 D Bancroft 0

4 G Davis 6 advances on seed
29 O Vizquel 6

13 B Larkin 7
20 J Sewell 0

5 R Yount 8
28 V Stephens 4

12 A Trammell 14
21 J Tinker 0

3 C Ripken JR 8
30 T Fernandez 2

14 E Banks 10
19 L Aparicio 0

6 O Smith 16
27 J Rollins 1

11 D Jeter 12
22 B Campaneris 1

2 A Rodriguez 9
31 R Peckinpaugh 0

15 J Cronin 5
18 J Glasscock 4

7 B Wallace 5
26 M Tejada 6

10 A Vaughan 8
23 J Fregosi 0

1 H Wagner 9
17 L Boudreau 0

8 B Dahlen 1
9 L Appling 7

4 G Davis 2
13 B Larkin 10

5 R Yount 6
12 A Trammell 8

3 C Ripken JR 4
14 E Banks 8

6 O Smith 6
11 D Jeter 7

2 A Rodriguez 11
15 J Cronin 2

26 M Tejada 0
10 A Vaughan 10

1 H Wagner 7
9 L Appling 0

13 B Larkin 7
12 A Trammell 4

14 E Banks
11 D Jeter

2 A Rodriguez
10 A Vaughan

1 H Wagner
13 B Larkin

 

[obxyankeefan]

Ernie Banks Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Luis Aparicio and Cal Ripken JR 18-4

Derek Jeter Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Bert Campaneris and Ozzie Smith 19-6

 

[obxyankeefan]

Yes I went homer. because of Jeter's great fielding

Seriously Jeter was better at getting on base and using his speed once he got on base, while Banks was a better power hitter. Banks also spent half of his career at 1B. Taking the shirts off their backs I would be hard pressed to decide which way I would be going with this one so yes I did go a little homer here.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I was one of the 4 people that voted against Banks in the last round... I cant see myself voting for him this round over my homer pick...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't penalize Banks for changing positions when he was so much better defensively than jeter was when he did play SS...

This is another competition where pretty much all of the comparisons are very obvious

Power- Banks wins(NOT CLOSE)
BA- Jeter wins(NOT CLOSE)
BB- Jeter wins(not close)
speed- Jeter wins(NOT CLOSE)
SO- Banks wins(close)- both were BARELY better than MLB average
Defense- Banks wins(NOT CLOSE)
postseason- Jeter wins but Banks was never in the playoffs
career longevity- Jeter wins(2000 more PA)
positional longevity- Jeter wins(over 1000 more games)
499+PA seasons- Banks=15 jeter=18

So this is defense and power vs EVERYTHING ELSE...

Jeter wins...

 

[calsnowskier]

OPS+ (Jeter/Banks)
120 - 9/7
130 - 2/6
140 - 1/5
150 - 1/2 (153/155,156)

Jeter had more 120+ seasons than Banks had seasons at SS. But Banks had a much more impressive spread after that. Jeter only had 2 seasons of 130+. That is hardly elite. Banks wins this

Accolades
Jeter - ROY, 14 ASGs, 8 top 10 MVPs, 5 GG, 5 SS
Banks - 2 MVPs, 7 ASGs, 5 top 10 MVPs, 1 GG

A lot of the "accolades" study is counting BS factoids. But I like to look at it just to get an idea of how the player was viewed by the public and by the writers at his time. The fact that Jeter got 5 GGs says a lot. It says how BS that award is, but I also think it says, to a point, that his "bad defensive" was over-stated.

Jeter wins the accolades comparison, but not by much. Banks' 2 MVP awards alone almost won it for him.

oWAR7
Jeter - 49.4
Banks - 46.9

Jeter was actually a decent base stealer. He had 7 seasons of 20/75% or better. Banks never had double digit steals.

While I would take Banks over Jeter, even in a SS-only draft, I will be consistent with my pick here. Jeter had the better SS career. Insanely close, granted, but Banks simply did not accumulate enough time served to supplant Jeter's MASSIVE scope of work.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

OPS+ (Jeter/Banks)
120 - 9/7
130 - 2/6
140 - 1/5
150 - 1/2 (153/155,156)

Jeter had more 120+ seasons than Banks had seasons at SS. But Banks had a much more impressive spread after that. Jeter only had 2 seasons of 130+. That is hardly elite. Banks wins this

Accolades
Jeter - ROY, 14 ASGs, 8 top 10 MVPs, 5 GG, 5 SS
Banks - 2 MVPs, 7 ASGs, 5 top 10 MVPs, 1 GG

A lot of the "accolades" study is counting BS factoids. But I like to look at it just to get an idea of how the player was viewed by the public and by the writers at his time. The fact that Jeter got 5 GGs says a lot. It says how BS that award is, but I also think it says, to a point, that his "bad defensive" was over-stated.

Jeter wins the accolades comparison, but not by much. Banks' 2 MVP awards alone almost won it for him.

oWAR7
Jeter - 49.4
Banks - 46.9

Jeter was actually a decent base stealer. He had 7 seasons of 20/75% or better. Banks never had double digit steals.

While I would take Banks over Jeter, even in a SS-only draft, I will be consistent with my pick here. Jeter had the better SS career. Insanely close, granted, but Banks simply did not accumulate enough time served to supplant Jeter's MASSIVE scope of work.

Boy do I disagree here... Banks was definitely better defensively... But Jeter was a much better top of the lineup guy than Banks was a middle of the lineup guy!!!

 

[calsnowskier]

Boy do I disagree here... Banks was definitely better defensively... But Jeter was a much better top of the lineup guy than Banks was a middle of the lineup guy!!!

Unless your name is Cobb, Henderson, Brock or a few others, this whole "top of the lineup" argument you make does not make sense, IMHO. Bonds had elite speed, but he also had an elite bat. He was a 3/4/5 hitter for MUCH more of his career than a 1/2.

When given the choice between a 1/2 and a 3/4/5, teams will take a 3/4/5 every day of the week.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Unless your name is Cobb, Henderson, Brock or a few others, this whole "top of the lineup" argument you make does not make sense, IMHO. Bonds had elite speed, but he also had an elite bat. He was a 3/4/5 hitter for MUCH more of his career than a 1/2.

When given the choice between a 1/2 and a 3/4/5, teams will take a 3/4/5 every day of the week.

I am not saying Jeter is better because he is a top of the lineup guy... I am saying he is a BETTER top of the lineup guy than Banks was middle... I agree that I would rather have my best players in the middle... But banks compared to other great middles is just VERY average...

 

[calsnowskier]

I am not saying Jeter is better because he is a top of the lineup guy... I am saying he is a BETTER top of the lineup guy than Banks was middle... I agree that I would rather have my best players in the middle... But banks compared to other great middles is just VERY average...

But as a 3/4/5 SHORTSTOP, he is in rarefied air. And the fact that he changed positions hurts him in a SS contest (thus why I voted for Jeter).

Career vs Career, numbers vs numbers, Jeter wins. But, IMHO, that is MAINLY due to longevity.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But as a 3/4/5 SHORTSTOP, he is in rarefied air. And the fact that he changed positions hurts him in a SS contest (thus why I voted for Jeter).

Career vs Career, numbers vs numbers, Jeter wins. But, IMHO, that is MAINLY due to longevity.

see, that's the thing I don't care that he is a SS... I don't think position played should help someone's offensive value... Defensive value, fine... but not offense... That's really what I hate about WAR... position played has way too much of a factor IMO...

 

[calsnowskier]

see, that's the thing I don't care that he is a SS... I don't think position played should help someone's offensive value... Defensive value, fine... but not offense... That's really what I hate about WAR... position played has way too much of a factor IMO...

But when you can get a legit 3/4/5 AND a solid premium defender in the same player...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But when you can get a legit 3/4/5 AND a solid premium defender in the same player...

fine, but do you think he was an elite 3/4/5 his whole career?? He did have some great seasons, but he only lead in SLG once, HRs twice and RBIs twice... Never lead in OPS or OPS+ or ISO...

 

[calsnowskier]

fine, but do you think he was an elite 3/4/5 his whole career?? He did have some great seasons, but he only lead in SLG once, HRs twice and RBIs twice... Never lead in OPS or OPS+ or ISO...

Jeter was never elite. He really only had 1 elite OPS+ season (a single 153). He was just consistently really good.

As for Banks, his whole SHORTSTOP career, yes. He was almost always all-star-to-elite.

 

[Howie115]

I wonder what Jeter's BA and OBP numbers would have looked like had he played through the high mound/low ERA years of the 60's as Banks did. You had .301 and .305 batting averages LEADING THE LEAGUE in some of those years.

 

[calsnowskier]

I wonder what Jeter's BA and OBP numbers would have looked like had he played through the high mound/low ERA years of the 60's as Banks did. You had .301 and .305 batting averages LEADING THE LEAGUE in some of those years.

Exactly why I use OPS+ as my primary comparison tool.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

fine, but do you think he was an elite 3/4/5 his whole career?? He did have some great seasons, but he only lead in SLG once, HRs twice and RBIs twice... Never lead in OPS or OPS+ or ISO...

he was top 10 in
SLG 5 times
OPS+ 5 times
offensive win% 4 times
HRs 7 times

 

[calsnowskier]

Jeter never led in BA, OBP or SB and only led in runs scored once.

 

[da55bums]

Jeter 1840 K's - 260 HR
Banks 1236 K's - 512 HR

drop the mic

 

[calsnowskier]

Jeter 1840 K's - 260 HR
Banks 1236 K's - 512 HR

drop the mic

How much of that was done as a SS, though?