Top 25 CBB programs of all time by (Lost Letterman)

[Codaxx]

I can certainly agree with this, and I can certainly understand its importance in determining UK as #1. I think it has a lot to do with it, but not entirely (to me). Like someone else said, UK and UNC also went through stretches of bad coaches and floundering to stabilize the program. I think it's more a marker of current elite programs (which UCLA certainly is not), but less important to me, if we are going all the way back to 1939.

Let me hear the floundering through coaches part. Since 1930 the coaches have been Rupp, Joe B Hall, Eddie Sutton, Pitino, Tubby, Gillespie, and Calipari. Like I said prior 5 of the 7 won NCs. You keep this up I will go Trolly on you

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Jesus, again with all the hyperbole and exaggeration. Bullshitting as I understand it is when you know something is wrong and you put forth the argument anyway in an attempt to convince someone who doesn't know any better. That clearly is not the case with my argument. I genuinely thought that UCLA led in NC, FF, and winning %. As far as a liar, unless your definition is that anyone who speaks incorrectly of a fact is a liar, then it's just called being wrong, which I have admitted to being, numerous times. The overwhelming majority of what I post is true, although I can certainly understand that not all of it is. That doesn't warrant calling that bulshitting, or that I'm a liar. And making shit up is also very loose. I guess technically, any lie is "made up" but you are insinuating that I am trying to be deceitful by just making shit up, and clearly that's not the case.

Being that you already admit to being an asshole, how about you incorporate that into your filter of posting. Maybe think, damn, I'm probably going to blow this person's position all to hell with passive aggressive personal attacks and a perception that this person is trying to be deceitful, when he/she might just be misinformed.

As far as admitting when I was wrong, I was very clear about that also. You can misinterpret that as being sarcastic, but when I put myself in your shoes, acknowledging that I also agree with holding people to the truth (without being an asshole), then you should probably calm the fuck down and take it as genuine.

Well for starters, regardless of whether you want to go with the "official" or the "popular" definition, you were absolutely spewing bullshit with regards to your "facts" about UCLA. Regardless of whether you were mistaken (which I don't believe) or you were doing it intentionally, you're still an asshole for unapologetically throwing out wrong stats. And had you only done it once, I wouldn't have really cared. I would have corrected you and moved on. But instead of realizing, "Hey, maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, and perhaps I should spend 10 seconds to verify next time" you turned around and continued to do the same goddamn thing, doubling down on your dumbfuckery. If you weren't doing it on purpose, then you're a level of stupid that makes Runeman feel proud.

And I suppose I could make an effort to incorporate your delicate fucking sensibilities into my internet filter, but the problem with that is I don't give a shit about your delicate fucking sensibilities. If you're a fucking liar, I don't give two shits about whether you get your feelings hurt when I call you a liar. Don't want to be called a liar? Don't fucking lie, asshole. And I don't really give two shits whether you get your feelings hurt if I call you fucking idiot. Don't want me to call you a fucking idiot? Don't act like a fucking idiot and I won't do it. Problem solved. I take no pleasure in pointing out what an idiot/lair you are. I'd much rather joke around and post silly gifs instead, but when somebody starts up the bullshit machine, I'm going to call them out on it every time.

As far as admitting you were wrong, you didn't do it until I pressed the issue multiple times (after you had been an idiot/lied multiple times) and only then did you reply with a smarmy, passive aggressive "Well, if you're not going to let this go, maybe this will shut you up" acknowledgement. Only after that little display of dipshittery did I take off the gloves and tell you what a fucking cock you've been in this thread.

There really is no excuse to post blatantly false statistics on here. You're on the fucking internet for chissake. It literally takes 10 seconds to verify this stuff. And if you're too fucking lazy to do that, you could at least add "I think..." or say "they're ranked near the top" instead of arrogantly putting your ignorance on display for the world to see.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Let me hear the floundering through coaches part. Since 1930 the coaches have been Rupp, Joe B Hall, Eddie Sutton, Pitino, Tubby, Gillespie, and Calipari. Like I said prior 5 of the 7 won NCs. You keep this up I will go Trolly on you

Hahaha, I don't need anymore of that. I was talking about the end of Tubby and Gillespie. And more floundering in the eyes of UK fans yourselves. You guys had 2 EE in 8 years, which isn't bad, but it got Gillespie fired and Tubby to step down.

I was also including UNC because by their standards, '73-'80 wasn't great for them, except for '77, and the Doherty years. I'm sure there are rumblings in Chapel Hill about Williams needing to get them back to FF next year, because it will have been 7 years, while Duke has two NCs since then.

It's relative. Not bad by the majority of standards, but not acceptable to sustain for programs that thrive on consistency.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Well for starters, regardless of whether you want to go with the "official" or the "popular" definition, you were absolutely spewing bullshit with regards to your "facts" about UCLA. Regardless of whether you were mistaken (which I don't believe) or you were doing it intentionally, you're still an asshole for unapologetically throwing out wrong stats. And had you only done it once, I wouldn't have really cared. I would have corrected you and moved on. But instead of realizing, "Hey, maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, and perhaps I should spend 10 seconds to verify next time" you turned around and continued to do the same goddamn thing, doubling down on your dumbfuckery. If you weren't doing it on purpose, then you're a level of stupid that makes Runeman feel proud.

And I suppose I could make an effort to incorporate your delicate fucking sensibilities into my internet filter, but the problem with that is I don't give a shit about your delicate fucking sensibilities. If you're a fucking liar, I don't give two shits about whether you get your feelings hurt when I call you a liar. Don't want to be called a liar? Don't fucking lie, asshole. And I don't really give two shits whether you get your feelings hurt if I call you fucking idiot. Don't want me to call you a fucking idiot? Don't act like a fucking idiot and I won't do it. Problem solved. I take no pleasure in pointing out what an idiot/lair you are. I'd much rather joke around and post silly gifs instead, but when somebody starts up the bullshit machine, I'm going to call them out on it every time.

As far as admitting you were wrong, you didn't do it until I pressed the issue multiple times (after you had been an idiot/lied multiple times) and only then did you reply with a smarmy, passive aggressive "Well, if you're not going to let this go, maybe this will shut you up" acknowledgement. Only after that little display of dipshittery did I take off the gloves and tell you what a fucking cock you've been in this thread.

There really is no excuse to post blatantly false statistics on here. You're on the fucking internet for chissake. It literally takes 10 seconds to verify this stuff. And if you're too fucking lazy to do that, you could at least add "I think..." or say "they're ranked near the top" instead of arrogantly putting your ignorance on display for the world to see.

You do realize that with being an overt asshole comes the responsibility of limiting how much of it we have to deal with it on a forum, right? You do realize that you should be concerned about the amount of asshole you display here before multiple people say that you can comment without being such an asshole all the time, right?

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

You do realize that with being an overt asshole comes the responsibility of limiting how much of it we have to deal with it on a forum, right? You do realize that you should be concerned about the amount of asshole you display here before multiple people say that you can comment without being such an asshole all the time, right?

You do realize I don't give two squirts of piss how much of an asshole you think I am, right? You do realize I don't care how much you bitch about me being an asshole, right? You do realize that as long as you're going to be a lying idiot, I have absolutely no respect for you, and your opinion has zero value with me, right? So while there are people around here who's opinion I do value, as long as you continue to be such a disingenuous shitheel, you will never be one of them.

 

[CatsTopPac]

You do realize I don't give two squirts of piss how much of an asshole you think I am, right? You do realize I don't care how much you bitch about me being an asshole, right? You do realize that as long as you're going to be a lying idiot, I have absolutely no respect for you, and your opinion has zero value with me, right? So while there are people around here who's opinion I do value, as long as you continue to be such a disingenuous shitheel, you will never be one of them.

If I was the only one, or even a rare occasion, then I'd understand. But please, don't let me stop you from being well on your way toward becoming a sociopath.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

If I was the only one, or even a rare occasion, then I'd understand. But please, don't let me stop you from being well on your way toward becoming a sociopath.

I guess knowing that you're not the only disingenuous idiot around here gives you a little comfort doesn't it. It let's you delude yourself into believing that you're somehow justified in your deceitful ways.

But take a good look at the posters on here that I regularly get into it with and decide if that's the crowd you want to be associated with.

But someone who is so willing to intentionally lie, or accept an alternate reality might want to look in the mirror before he starts throwing out accusations of mental illness.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I guess knowing that you're not the only disingenuous idiot around here gives you a little comfort doesn't it. It let's you delude yourself into believing that you're somehow justified in your deceitful ways.

But take a good look at the posters on here that I regularly get into it with and decide if that's the crowd you want to be associated with.

But someone who is so willing to intentionally lie, or accept an alternate reality might want to look in the mirror before he starts throwing out accusations of mental illness.

Right, again you are telling me that I'm intentionally lying, and that's fucking ridiculous to say. You're missing the boat with all that. I'm also not the only person in even this thread. I can't count the amount of times that you have been obnoxiously aggressive in your personal attacks on a CBB forum. How many people have posted asking or telling you to stop being an asshole? If multiple people on a single thread, let alone the numerous more on the forum, are telling me that I'm being a complete asshole, I would definitely look in the mirror. But the political forum isn't even as bad as the shit you say, and this is college fucking basketball. Get a fucking grip.

And looking at the other people? I'm no one's judge to try and rip someone apart because of what they say on a CBB forum, unless they are just being a complete asshole to everyone. You don't fucking know me. You don't know anyone on here. You know what you interpret from what is posted occasionally on a CBB furum (which based on you "intentional lying" theory you fucking suck at). See the pattern here?

There is no reason that unless someone goes around just blatantly attacking people, that anyone on a cbb forum should have to deal with your shit. But we do, because we get it. Some people are like that. But Jesus, throw us fucking bone and tone down your 'Someone has to tell you how bad of a human being you are because of what you say about CBB.'

I can assure you that nothing in this thread/forum warrants you being a complete and unapologetic asshole so often.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Right, again you are telling me that I'm intentionally lying, and that's fucking ridiculous to say. You're missing the boat with all that. I'm also not the only person in even this thread. I can't count the amount of times that you have been obnoxiously aggressive in your personal attacks on a CBB forum. How many people have posted asking or telling you to stop being an asshole? If multiple people on a single thread, let alone the numerous more on the forum, are telling me that I'm being a complete asshole, I would definitely look in the mirror. But the political forum isn't even as bad as the shit you say, and this is college fucking basketball. Get a fucking grip.

And looking at the other people? I'm no one's judge to try and rip someone apart because of what they say on a CBB forum, unless they are just being a complete asshole to everyone. You don't fucking know me. You don't know anyone on here. You know what you interpret from what is posted occasionally on a CBB furum (which based on you "intentional lying" theory you fucking suck at). See the pattern here?

There is no reason that unless someone goes around just blatantly attacking people, that anyone on a cbb forum should have to deal with your shit. But we do, because we get it. Some people are like that. But Jesus, throw us fucking bone and tone down your 'Someone has to tell you how bad of a human being you are because of what you say about CBB.'

I can assure you that nothing in this thread/forum warrants you being a complete and unapologetic asshole so often.

Well, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt by calling you a lair. The other alternative are stupid or psychotic. If you'd prefer I call you one of those instead, just let me know and i'll be happy to oblige. You just seem unwilling to get to the bottom of all the bullshit you spewed in this thread so I can't really say for sure which one you actually are until you come clean about where you got your facts from. I'm just basing the lying accusation on how willfully you continued to provide false information after already having been proven wrong.

And get the fuck out of here with your revisionist fucking history. I wasn't trying to rip anyone apart until you decided to be an asshole, so I replied in kind.

But maybe you should just ask again why nobody is complaining about where IU is ranked, even though the question has already been answered (because no one has a problem with where IU is ranked) several times. Perhaps if you were as diligent in your quest to get information to bolster your UCLA argument as you are about trying to pick a fight over IU, I wouldn't have to be such an asshole to you.

TEN MOTHERFUCKING SECONDS MOTHERFUCKER. THAT'S ALL IT TAKES.

 

[SpartyNash13]

What's to be overrated about SU. They have one NC and a few FF's. There's nothing to over rate. They are not in the discussion with UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA and a few others that just don't come to mind right now.

MI State is a great program as well. I wouldn't say one is much better than the other but on a scale you have to rub in opinions of weight to make a final decision.

So calling it laughable just means you are a huge homer. Which is ok. Another term is fan. And I'm good with that from fans.

MSU:
Titles: 2
Final Fours: 9
Elite Eights:13
Conference titles: 13

SYRACUSE:
Titles: 1
Final Fours: 5
Elite Eights: 9
Conference titles: 8

I'm not saying Cuse is a bad program, but to put them higher than Michigan State is again laughable given the stats I provided.

 

[ericd7633]

I would definitely have Florida higher than what they are. I know they didn't do much prior to 1985, but what they've done since then warrants them to be ranked higher IMO. Also I'd have Michigan State ahead of Syracuse.

I will say I think there is a quite a gap after the top 8 programs when getting to number 9. Those top 8 are pretty secure for the time being.

 

[jontaejones]

MSU:
Titles: 2
Final Fours: 9
Elite Eights:13
Conference titles: 13

SYRACUSE:
Titles: 1
Final Fours: 5
Elite Eights: 9
Conference titles: 8

I'm not saying Cuse is a bad program, but to put them higher than Michigan State is again laughable given the stats I provided.

The linked list is just the opinion of one superfan who has a blogpage.

This list ...

50 in 50 rankings: No. 1 North Carolina - Men's College Basketball Blog - ESPN

was actually compiled from a ton of stuff and has Cuse even further ahead.

I think they're about even.

 

[SpartyNash13]

The linked list is just the opinion of one superfan who has a blogpage.

This list ...

50 in 50 rankings: No. 1 North Carolina - Men's College Basketball Blog - ESPN

was actually compiled from a ton of stuff and has Cuse even further ahead.

I think they're about even.

The one thing I will give Cuse is that they have been consistent for many years. They do not go near as far in the tournament as they should but they are always seemingly in the Big Dance. After Magic left MSU, we were pretty irrelevant for all but about 2 years in the 1980s, I think we only made the tourney twice in that decade. Up until Magic came in 1977 MSU was not good in the 1970s either. I think that is why Cuse is ranked higher in these things, because they factor in a longer span of time.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

The one thing I will give Cuse is that they have been consistent for many years. They do not go near as far in the tournament as they should but they are always seemingly in the Big Dance. After Magic left MSU, we were pretty irrelevant for all but about 2 years in the 1980s, I think we only made the tourney twice in that decade. Up until Magic came in 1977 MSU was not good in the 1970s either. I think that is why Cuse is ranked higher in these things, because they factor in a longer span of time.

Yeah, Cuse is basically like Kansas-lite in my mind. Both have been consistently good during the regular season (though Kansas was generally better) and both have fared reasonably well in the tournament, though often not quite in line with their regular season success, and again, Kansas was still better)

The main things that differentiate all of these lists is what criteria is used, and how it is weighted.

Some people look purely at tournament success while others factor in regular season success as well.
Some people look exclusively at the positives, while others weigh the failures too.
Some people look at everything equally over time, and others factor in differences in tournament structure, number of games played, etc.

But those are what I would consider "the big 3" with regards to trying to rank teams like this. I think each is as valid as the next, which is what makes these things interesting.

The only thing I can't get behind personally is the "This record will never be broken" trump card. If the record won't be broken because the program was just so damn good, then I think it has some merit, but if that statement is true, only because circumstances have changed significantly then I don't really think it's a valuable piece of information to consider.

If you took Wooden's legendary teams, and transplanted them into today's game, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't have any of those "unbreakable" records. There's no freshman ineligibility rule. Parity is much better. There are more games per season. There is better competition in the PAC. NCAA tournament is significantly more difficult. So to me the UCLA dynasty is as much a product of the era as it is a product of the team being better than anything on the court today, which makes the "unbreakable" point moot in my mind.

 

[Codaxx]

The linked list is just the opinion of one superfan who has a blogpage.

This list ...

50 in 50 rankings: No. 1 North Carolina - Men's College Basketball Blog - ESPN

was actually compiled from a ton of stuff and has Cuse even further ahead.

I think they're about even.

I am not sure I like the top 10 picks as part of the equation, but it would be interesting to see the actual inputs. I do think we tend to over-rate the tourney a bit. There is quite a bit of luck involved in the Tourney. Did you get good match-ups based on style? Did you miss some of the top teams? I think regular season should have a lot larger roll in devising a system to measure the best program. Where did you rank? Conference finishes.

 

[gpm1976]

I am not sure I like the top 10 picks as part of the equation, but it would be interesting to see the actual inputs. I do think we tend to over-rate the tourney a bit. There is quite a bit of luck involved in the Tourney. Did you get good match-ups based on style? Did you miss some of the top teams? I think regular season should have a lot larger roll in devising a system to measure the best program. Where did you rank? Conference finishes.

Agree 100%. Don't get me wrong, I look forward to the tourney every year, but until they can figure out how to make it a little more like the nba in that teams play a 7 game series, it will never be truly legit. Basketball is a sport where it's just too easy for the underdog to catch fire one time and knock out a better team.

 

[7Samurai13]

Agree 100%. Don't get me wrong, I look forward to the tourney every year, but until they can figure out how to make it a little more like the nba in that teams play a 7 game series, it will never be truly legit. Basketball is a sport where it's just too easy for the underdog to catch fire one time and knock out a better team.

It is completely unfesible. They would have to either make it a 9 month tournament or cut it down to 4 teams. Either one kills the excitement of the Tourney.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

It is completely unfesible. They would have to either make it a 9 month tournament or cut it down to 4 teams. Either one kills the excitement of the Tourney.

Making the Final Four and Championship games best of 3 is feasible, and would help a great deal, but I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[Codaxx]

I love the tourney. It is the best Irving event in sports, because of the single elimination. That causes a lot of upsets to occur and I am fine with that. I love the randomness of the tourney. I was just saying that judging programs should be more than NC and Final 4s. It seems most of these lists focus too much on the last few games of the season and forget the first 30+

 

[Texas Jefe]

UConn women ought to sneak in as honorable mention. Just kidding. No, maybe not.