POLL Top 10 poll: #28 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #28 player in baseball history. Poll closes Monday AM.

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
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@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
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@DorianRo @socaljim242
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@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007
@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[calsnowskier]

Sandy Koufax 1955 - 1966

3 CY, 1 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 6 (+1) ASG

Bold: ERA 5, K 4, IP 2, WHIP 4, K/BB 3

ERA+ buckets

180 - 2
160 - 1
140 - 2
120 - 1 (0 additional 115+)

165-87 W-L
2396/817 K/BB
314/137 GS/CG
2324.1 IP


Clayton Kershaw 2008 - Current

3 CY, 1 MVP, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 2 top 10 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG

Bold: ERA 5, IP 1, K 3, WHIP 4, K/BB 2

ERA+ buckets

220 - 1
200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 3
120 - 2 (1 additional 115+)

212-94 W-L
2968/678 K/BB
429/25 GS/CG
2742.2 IP

 

[calsnowskier]

Mel Ott 1926 - 1947 (RF)

3 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 MVP, 7 down ballot MVP, 11 ASG

110.9 53.7

Bold: WAR 3, HR 6, R 2, RBI 1, OPS 2

160 - 8
140 - 6
120 - 4


Alex Rodriguez (SS/3B) 1994 - 2016

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 down ballot MVP, 14 ASG, 2 GG, 10 SS

117.6, 64.3

Bold: WAR 6, R 5, RBI 2, HR 5, 2B 1, H 1, OPS 2, TB 4

OPS+ buckets

160 - 5
140 - 3
120 - 8


Johnny Bench (C) 1967 - 1983

2 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 5 down ballot MVP, 14 ASG, ROY, 10 GG

75.1, 47.2

Bold: WAR 1, HR 2, RBI 3, TB 1

OPS+ buckets

160 - 1
140 - 4
120 - 5

 

[eaglesnut]

If I could ignore innings pitched Kershaw's 2016 is absolutely insane.

11 walks in 149 innings
Lowest whip ever

 

[eaglesnut]

Mel Ott led the league in HRs more times than cheatin Arod.

 

[calsnowskier]

Kershaw has better numbers than Koufax in every metric.

Longer career.
More good/great seasons.
More seasons with top 5 CY votes.
More seasons with top 10 CY votes.
More wins.
More Ks.
Better ERA+ buckets.


“But Koufax had his good seasons in a row!”

O…k…. And?

 

[Clayton]

Espn has Mel Ott ranked 62nd overall.

 

[eaglesnut]

Espn has Mel Ott ranked 62nd overall.

And they're always wrong.

 

[calsnowskier]

Kershaw from 2011 - 2015 (5 consecutive seasons)

4 ERA titles, 3 CY, CY runner up, CY second runner up, 4 WHIP titles.

Now can we stop slobbering Koufax’s 5-year run?

 

[Clayton]

And they're always wrong.

ARod, Koufax, and Bench are all in this range, though.

 

[calsnowskier]

Espn has Mel Ott ranked 62nd overall.

I think you just convinced me to vote Ott here. And now I fear we waited WAY too long to get him on the list.

 

[Clayton]

I think you just convinced me to vote Ott here. And now I fear we waited WAY too long to get him on the list.

A bunch of baseball populists in here. Elitists got it all wrong.


Ott is tricky. I don't think he won MVP or even runner up to MVP once. I think his numbers have always been disrespected because of his ballpark. His numbers are in this range, though, if you factor in the differences in NL play at the time. He was the best hitter in the NL at the time IIRC but the pitchers were the stars.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Kershaw has better numbers than Koufax in every metric.

Longer career.
More good/great seasons.
More seasons with top 5 CY votes.
More seasons with top 10 CY votes.
More wins.
More Ks.
Better ERA+ buckets.


“But Koufax had his good seasons in a row!”

O…k…. And?

Both won 3 CY

Koufax has 3 triple crowns compared to kershaw’s 1

Koufax has 2 BPOT kershaw has 1

Both lead the league in ERA 5 times and WHIP 4 times and wins 3 times.

Koufax lead the league in strikeouts 4 times compared to kershaw’s 3.

Seems to me the only 5 seasons of greatness was at the very least just as good as kershaw.

I would easily take Koufax accomplishments over kershaw’s.

 

[calsnowskier]

Both won 3 CY

Koufax has 3 triple crowns compared to kershaw’s 1

Koufax has 2 BPOT kershaw has 1

Both lead the league in ERA 5 times and WHIP 4 times and wins 3 times.

Koufax lead the league in strikeouts 4 times compared to kershaw’s 3.

Seems to me the only 5 seasons of greatness was at the very least just as good as kershaw.

I would easily take Koufax accomplishments over kershaw’s.

One of the legs of the pitchers triple crown is wins.

The defense rests, your honor.

 

[calsnowskier]

And for argument’s sake, let’s say that Koufax’s 5-years = Kershaw’s 5-years.

Than the argument is over. Kershaw was a still a very good to great pitcher outside of ‘11-‘15. Koufax was a #3/#4 pitcher outside his 5-year run.

Hell, you want to argue that Koufax’s run was actually 6 years instead of 5 (a valid argument, btw)? Fine. Would you rather add 2010 or 2016 to Kershaw’s run? Both are superior to Koufax’s 1961 season. Heck, you could argue that Kershaw’s consecutive peak ran from ‘09 - ‘19. His ‘20 was solid, but he only made 10 starts that year (for some reason).

Take away Koufax’s legend factor (well earned, btw), and remove any anti-recency bias, and there really isn’t any comparison between the two.

 

[calsnowskier]

Kershaw
Bench
Ott
Koufax


IMHO, Kershaw/Bench/Ott MIGHT be the top 3 names still on the board. Koufax might be top 8 or so. Putting Koufax in this spot is almost as bad as Griffey at 25.

 

[Hbomb]

Both won 3 CY

Koufax has 3 triple crowns compared to kershaw’s 1

Koufax has 2 BPOT kershaw has 1

Both lead the league in ERA 5 times and WHIP 4 times and wins 3 times.

Koufax lead the league in strikeouts 4 times compared to kershaw’s 3.

Seems to me the only 5 seasons of greatness was at the very least just as good as kershaw.

I would easily take Koufax accomplishments over kershaw’s.

The Koufax triple crowns were MLB not just NL
The Koufax Cy Young’s were MBB not just NL.

 

[Hbomb]

One of the legs of the pitchers triple crown is wins.

The defense rests, your honor.

Analytics are fun.

We play to win the game but wins don’t count.

We can measure stats but we can’t measure the will to win.

 

[Clayton]

And for argument’s sake, let’s say that Koufax’s 5-years = Kershaw’s 5-years.

Than the argument is over. Kershaw was a still a very good to great pitcher outside of ‘11-‘15. Koufax was a #3/#4 pitcher outside his 5-year run.

Hell, you want to argue that Koufax’s run was actually 6 years instead of 5 (a valid argument, btw)? Fine. Would you rather add 2010 or 2016 to Kershaw’s run? Both are superior to Koufax’s 1961 season. Heck, you could argue that Kershaw’s consecutive peak ran from ‘09 - ‘19. His ‘20 was solid, but he only made 10 starts that year (for some reason).

Take away Koufax’s legend factor (well earned, btw), and remove any anti-recency bias, and there really isn’t any comparison between the two.

I think a lot of people have been doing the 'if I could have this pitcher for one game' test and in that case I could see a lot of people taking Koufax over Kershaw. Kershaw definitely had the better career, though

 

[calsnowskier]

Analytics are fun.

We play to win the game but wins don’t count.

We can measure stats but we can’t measure the will to win.

Wins is only a valid stat at the career level, and even then it is only an accent piece. At the season scale it is next to worthless. It doesn’t tell a damned thing.