Top 10 poll: #24 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #24 player in baseball history. Poll closes Wednesday AM.

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
@Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte
@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
@Robotech @kcden @jwolt92
@Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab
@DorianRo @socaljim242
@msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin
@catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1
@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007
@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[calsnowskier]

Imho, this one CAN be a blowout. If ARod had not “crossed the line” in your opinion, he is a no-brainer. For me, he crossed the line of no return, and will never get my vote, so this one will not be unanimous, at least. But that is my personal judgement of where “the line” is.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Imho, this one CAN be a blowout. If ARod had not “crossed the line” in your opinion, he is a no-brainer. For me, he crossed the line of no return, and will never get my vote, so this one will not be unanimous, at least. But that is my personal judgement of where “the line” is.

i really find your steroids take weird and unique... not saying its wrong... but its just really weird to me...

 

[calsnowskier]

Ken Griffey Jr (CF) 1989 - 2010

1 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 3 additional seasons with MVP votes, 13 ASG, 10 GG, 7 SS

83.8, 54.0

Bold: WAR 3, RBI 1, HR 4, R 1, TB 2

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 3
140 - 5
120 - 4

Frank Robinson (RF) 1956 - 1976

2 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 12 (+2) ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

107.2, 52.9

Bold: WAR 1, R 3, HR 1, RBI 1, OPS 4, TB 1, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 8
120 - 3

Alex Rodriguez (SS/3B) 1994 - 2016

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 14 ASG, 2 GG, 10 SS

117.6, 64.3

Bold: WAR 6, R 5, RBI 2, HR 5, 2B 1, H 1, OPS 2, TB 4

OPS+ buckets

160 - 5
140 - 3
120 - 8

 

[calsnowskier]

i really find your steroids take weird and unique... not saying its wrong... but its just really weird to me...

This group didn’t break any rules.

This group did.

Pretty cut and dry, I think.

 

[calsnowskier]

Just for comparison sake…

Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current

3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG

86.2, 65.1

Bold: WAR 5, R 4, RBI 1, BB 3, OBP 4, SLG 3, OPS 4, TB 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 3
160 - 7
140 - 0
120 - 0

He belongs in the best bat available discussion RIGHT NOW.

 

[calsnowskier]

Lefty Grove 1925 - 1941

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes (no Cy Young Awards were given during his career)

Bold: ERA 9, K 6, WHIP 5, IP 0, K/BB 8

300-141 W-L
2266/1187 K/BB
457/298 GS/CG
3940.2 IP

Christy Mathewson 1900 - 1916

2 top 5 MVP, 2 more season w MVP votes (MVP only awarded 4 years during his career)

Bold: ERA 5, K 5, WHIP 4, IP 1, K/BB 9

373-188 W-L
2507/848 K/BB
552/435 GS/CG
4788.2 IP

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This group didn’t break any rules.

This group did.

Pretty cut and dry, I think.

Most people when it comes to steroids is

this group did steroids

This group there is no proof that they did steroids...

you care more about the legality... which i understand... but by doing so you ignore a few facts...

1. it was a banned substance already... it just wasnt being enforced... but always frowned upon

2. the reason for it becoming illegal in the way it did was mainly because of Bonds... a player by your ruling gets a pass...

 

[calsnowskier]

Most people when it comes to steroids is

this group did steroids

This group there is no proof that they did steroids...

you care more about the legality... which i understand... but by doing so you ignore a few facts...

1. it was a banned substance already... it just wasnt being enforced... but always frowned upon

2. the reason for it becoming illegal in the way it did was mainly because of Bonds... a player by your ruling gets a pass...

It wasn’t banned. It was just desired by one commissioner to be banned. Even Vincent himself said that his memo should not be used as any declaration of a rule.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It wasn’t banned. It was just desired by one commissioner to be banned. Even Vincent himself said that his memo should not be used as any declaration of a rule.

understood... but that is only semantics... if it was a known drug that has serious effects to the integrity of the game... players were still NOT SUPPOSED to do it... the only difference between it being legal or not was the punishment for using... but it was always understood what it was... and that it gave advantages... hell, thats why nobody ever admitted using it... there was always a fear of what would happen if they were caught outside of the lockerroom...

 

[calsnowskier]

understood... but that is only semantics... if it was a known drug that has serious effects to the integrity of the game... players were still NOT SUPPOSED to do it... the only difference between it being legal or not was the punishment for using... but it was always understood what it was... and that it gave advantages... hell, thats why nobody ever admitted using it... there was always a fear of what would happen if they were caught outside of the lockerroom...

If it isn’t banned or not allowed, that means it is allowed. As professionals at the highest level, players will/should do anything and everything within the rules to better their play and help their team win. PEDs were allowed, so MOST players utilized them. And the league milked those players for all they were worth (further incentivizing them to continue using).

For the record, I agree with banning them, and think it would have been better from the beginning if they were banned. But they weren’t banned. And they were encouraged. Until they weren’t.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If it isn’t banned or not allowed, that means it is allowed. As professionals at the highest level, players will/should do anything and everything within the rules to better their play and help their team win. PEDs were allowed, so MOST players utilized them. And the league milked those players for all they were worth (further incentivizing them to continue using).

For the record, I agree with banning them, and think it would have been better from the beginning if they were banned. But they weren’t banned. And they were encouraged. Until they weren’t.

yes... but it was allowed in a hush hush way... a you can use it but dont let anyone find out outside of the lockerroom... that is not entirely allowed...

and yes... i agree that steroids saved the game after the 1994 strike.... the 1998 HR race between Macgwire and Sosa was the biggest savior...

BUT even then, usage of steroids was always a bad kept secret...

Bonds was the reason that the media and then government forced baseball's hand to not protect the secret anymore...

 

[calsnowskier]

yes... but it was allowed in a hush hush way... a you can use it but dont let anyone find out outside of the lockerroom... that is not entirely allowed...

and yes... i agree that steroids saved the game after the 1994 strike.... the 1998 HR race between Macgwire and Sosa was the biggest savior...

BUT even then, usage of steroids was always a bad kept secret...

Bonds was the reason that the media and then government forced baseball's hand to not protect the secret anymore...

We aren’t telling different stories.

I am just looking at the incentives that were truly in place (PED use was encouraged and rewarded) and I am judging the game was intentionally put on the field. Once the rules officially changed, I am judging THAT game.

Similar to if aluminum bats were allowed in the game for a couple decades, then they were outlawed, but some players continued to use them. You can’t punish the players who used them while they were allowed, and you can’t let the players who continued using them once they were outlawed go unpunished.

 

[msgkings322]

i really find your steroids take weird and unique... not saying its wrong... but its just really weird to me...

It's very legalistic and technicality focused. cal knows Bonds and Clemens used, but it is a fact that they never failed any official steroid screenings and ARod did. Also when B&C used it technically wasn't illegal in the rules of baseball.

It's sort of like distinguishing between people who were proven to bet on baseball (Pete Rose) and people who we 'know' did that but do not have proof.

It's not how most people parse it but that's the logic.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

We aren’t telling different stories.

I am just looking at the incentives that were truly in place (PED use was encouraged and rewarded) and I am judging the game was intentionally put on the field. Once the rules officially changed, I am judging THAT game.

Similar to if aluminum bats were allowed in the game for a couple decades, then they were outlawed, but some players continued to use them. You can’t punish the players who used them while they were allowed, and you can’t let the players who continued using them once they were outlawed.

your equivalence is not a good one.. but i get it that you tried to find an equivalence and there really is none...

because again, it wasnt REALLY legal... it was more just not enforced than anything else... if it was totally legal, then players would have admitted usage then and there...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It's very legalistic and technicality focused. cal knows Bonds and Clemens used, but it is a fact that they never failed any official steroid screenings and ARod did. Also when B&C used it technically wasn't illegal in the rules of baseball.

It's sort of like distinguishing between people who were proven to bet on baseball (Pete Rose) and people who we 'know' did that but do not have proof.

It's not how most people parse it but that's the logic.

i understand his view... my point is that it wasnt exactly legal back then either... by definition, sure... it was legal... but everyone knew it was wrong... that is not exactly the same...

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

Oh no, this thread has devolved into another pissing match about historic Giants players, who saw that coming??

 

[calsnowskier]

Oh no, this thread has devolved into another pissing match about historic Giants players, who saw that coming??

The discussion focuses on a Yankee player, but because a Giant was mentioned once, it is a discussion “about historical Giants players”.

 

[msgkings322]

Oh no, this thread has devolved into another pissing match about historic Giants players, who saw that coming??

You should try rooting for a franchise with so many all time greats.

But the Mets are adorable over there with their 2 titles from 39 and 56 years ago

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

You should try rooting for a franchise with so many all time greats.

But the Mets are adorable over there with their 2 titles from 39 and 56 years ago

What's that got to do with Bonds taking roids?