POLL Top 10 poll: #24 player in history - Runoff 2

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #24 player in baseball history. Poll closes Thursday AM.

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
@Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte
@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
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@Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab
@DorianRo @socaljim242
@msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin
@catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1
@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007
@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[calsnowskier]

No point for the career summaries. These two have been in this position multiple times before. Everyone’s mind, on this one, is already made up.

I just wish one side of the argument would actually speak up and defend their vote. This project is about discussion, not just blind voting.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

this is a boring runoff... it is clear that the correct answer is Lefty... really no debate needed...

we are just hoping that the Griffey support is smaller than the support for the correct vote...

 

[eaglesnut]

I'm comfortable with Griffey as top 25 all time.

A lot of these guys got to play on grass which extended their careers and primes. Especially the old-time guys.

Griffey had to do it all on some awful turf.

 

[eaglesnut]

But I voted Lefty.

I'd like to get to Mathewson here soon

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm comfortable with Griffey as top 25 all time.

A lot of these guys got to play on grass which extended their careers and primes. Especially the old-time guys.

Griffey had to do it all on some awful turf.

But his numbers don’t compare to Robinson, who played during the “turf-era”. And Trout, who still isn’t done, has very comparable numbers, with already a higher WAR7. Imho, Trout > Griffey.

At best, Griffey is the #3 available bat (#4 if you count ARod)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But his numbers don’t compare to Robinson, who played during the “turf-era”. And Trout, who still isn’t done, has very comparable numbers, with already a higher WAR7. Imho, Trout > Griffey.

At best, Griffey is the #3 available bat (#4 if you count ARod)

i can at least make an argument vs trout... not sure if i can vs Robinson, Ott, or Morgan...

 

[calsnowskier]

i can at least make an argument vs trout... not sure if i can vs Robinson, Ott, or Morgan...

Even though I consider Morgan > Collins, Collins has the highest WAR on the table by a significant margin. How long can that be ignored?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Even though I consider Morgan > Collins, Collins has the highest WAR on the table by a significant margin. How long can that be ignored?

i am also a morgan over collins... so i ignore it because of that... LOL... i actually dont even think they are that close... DESPITE the WAR...

 

[calsnowskier]

i am also a morgan over collins... so i ignore it because of that... LOL... i actually dont even think they are that close... DESPITE the WAR...

I will probably do a “deep dive” into a comparison of them at 25 (and include Lajoie). I don’t know that they are ready for discussion yet, but I haven’t REALLY looked, and I think that may be past-due.

 

[LHG]

Even though I consider Morgan > Collins, Collins has the highest WAR on the table by a significant margin. How long can that be ignored?

i am also a morgan over collins... so i ignore it because of that... LOL... i actually dont even think they are that close... DESPITE the WAR...

I will probably do a “deep dive” into a comparison of them at 25 (and include Lajoie). I don’t know that they are ready for discussion yet, but I haven’t REALLY looked, and I think that may be past-due.

Eddie Collins (2B) 1906 - 1930 (played in a total of 68 games in the 1906, 1907, 1928, 1929 and 1930 seasons combined)

1 MVP, 5 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP (no other awards around then, nor ASG)

124.3, 64.3

Bold: WAR 1, R 3, SB 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 5
140 - 5
120 - 7

Nap Lajoie (2B) 1896 - 1916

2 seasons with MVP votes toward end of career (MVP not given most of his career)

106.9, 60.1

Bold: WAR 6, R 1, 2B 5, HR 1, RBI 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 2
160 - 4
140 - 5
120 - 4

Joe Morgan (2B) 1963 - 1984 (played in total of 28 games in the 1963, 1964 and 1968 seasons combined)

2 MVPs, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 10 ASG, 5 GG, 1 SS

100.6, 59.3

Bold: WAR 4, R 1, 3B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 1
160 - 1
140 - 3
120 - 5

 

[calsnowskier]

WAR bold probably compares against pitchers, doesn’t it…

 

[LHG]

WAR bold probably compares against pitchers, doesn’t it…

That I do not know.

 

[calsnowskier]

Collins’ WAR makes no sense. Lajoie looks like the superior player based on this analysis. Are there any reports of Collins’ or Lajoie’s defensive prowess? We know Morgan was good.

I wonder if my assumption that Morgan was the best available 2B was based recency bias and ignorance of Collins and Lajoie.

 

[LHG]

Collins’ WAR makes no sense. Lajoie looks like the superior player based on this analysis. Are there any reports of Collins’ or Lajoie’s defensive prowess? We know Morgan was good.

I wonder if my assumption that Morgan was the best available 2B was based recency bias and ignorance of Collins and Lajoie.

Collins revered as one of game's best second basemen | Baseball Hall of Fame

baseballhall.org

Lajoie, Nap | Baseball Hall of Fame

“Lajoie was one of the most rugged hitters I ever faced. He’d take your leg off with a line drive, turn the third baseman around like a swinging door, and powder the hand of the left fielder.” – Cy Young Napoleon Lajoie, hitter extraordinaire, sublime fielder, manager and executive, has been...

baseballhall.org

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Collins’ WAR makes no sense. Lajoie looks like the superior player based on this analysis. Are there any reports of Collins’ or Lajoie’s defensive prowess? We know Morgan was good.

I wonder if my assumption that Morgan was the best available 2B was based recency bias and ignorance of Collins and Lajoie.

Collins was one of the best deadball era baserunner. He has a season of over 80 sb. Thats one reasons his war is so high.

 

[eaglesnut]

But his numbers don’t compare to Robinson, who played during the “turf-era”. And Trout, who still isn’t done, has very comparable numbers, with already a higher WAR7. Imho, Trout > Griffey.

At best, Griffey is the #3 available bat (#4 if you count ARod)

Griffey has Robinson in extra base hits in less plate appearances.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Griffey has Robinson in extra base hits in less plate appearances.

Griffey is actually very interesting because a vote for him is assuming he was clean. But his adjusted numbers are going to be affected negatively to the steroid era. As the averages are all going to be higher.

So really you can’t use the adjusted numbers for him.

 

[calsnowskier]

Collins was one of the best deadball era baserunner. He has a season of over 80 sb. Thats one reasons his war is so high.

Looking at his stats, though, he looks like a bad base stealer. He was getting caught almost as much as he was stealing. And that is with incomplete CS numbers from his era.

 

[eaglesnut]

But his numbers don’t compare to Robinson, who played during the “turf-era”. And Trout, who still isn’t done, has very comparable numbers, with already a higher WAR7. Imho, Trout > Griffey.

At best, Griffey is the #3 available bat (#4 if you count ARod)

Griffey's peak in '96 and '97 is greater than Robinson's in '61 and '62.