Thomas/Molitor vs Martinez/Ortiz

[calsnowskier]

Thomas and Molitor are in. Martinez is out. Ortiz will be the next great test for the DH.

Why has Martinez been shunned while Molitor and Thomas have been embraced? What will be Ortiz' fate?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Thomas and Molitor are in. Martinez is out. Ortiz will be the next great test for the DH.

Why has Martinez been shunned while Molitor and Thomas have been embraced? What will be Ortiz' fate?

Not with the PED cloud around Ortiz.

Edgar should be in, but I'm sure a lot of the voters can't bring themselves to voting for a DH who didn't reach 3000 hits or 500 HR.

 

[BigDDude]

Not with the PED cloud around Ortiz.

Edgar should be in, but I'm sure a lot of the voters can't bring themselves to voting for a DH who didn't reach 3000 hits or 500 HR.

However, when the game/sport itself decided to name a position specific award to you, it should be very obious that you were the best at said position, a.k.a HOF worhty.

Think people, THINK!

 

[podsox]

because a large portion of the hall of fame voters are morons. edgar cant be in because he only hit.... half the pitchers in baseball only pitch. the others suck at it. time for the voters to wake the f up. it isn't 1960 anymore

 

[calsnowskier]

In my book, Thomas and Molitor are deserving, but Martinez and Ortiz are not. Thomas' induction got me thinking about WHY I hold this opinion.

Some of my initial thoughts...

While PM and FT were primarily DHs for a good portion of their career, they still played the majority of their games in the field. DO and EM played the VAST majority of their career from the bench.

My view is that even if they played the field (at a "--" level), they would have earned more consideration for the Hall because their teams would have decided that their offensive contributions were worth their detractions in the field. Since the teams did not make that determination, they both have LARGE negatives against their inclusion.

I understand that this same argument can be used against PM and FT. And for both of them, I file those negatives in my calculus. But they both still played the majority of their games in the field.

 

[BigDDude]

In my book, Thomas and Molitor are deserving, but Martinez and Ortiz are not. Thomas' induction got me thinking about WHY I hold this opinion.

Some of my initial thoughts...

While PM and FT were primarily DHs for a good portion of their career, they still played the majority of their games in the field. DO and EM played the VAST majority of their career from the bench.

My view is that even if they played the field (at a "--" level), they would have earned more consideration for the Hall because their teams would have decided that their offensive contributions were worth their detractions in the field. Since the teams did not make that determination, they both have LARGE negatives against their inclusion.

I understand that this same argument can be used against PM and FT. And for both of them, I file those negatives in my calculus. But they both still played the majority of their games in the field.

To me, this is the obvious prevailing opinion. However, I ask you and others that feel this way to look at this from this one angle.

The Mariners asked Martinez to do this one specific baseball job. He did it, and did it better than almost all of his contemporaties. As such, is it right to hold against him of doing the job his team asked him to do?

 

[podsox]

In my book, Thomas and Molitor are deserving, but Martinez and Ortiz are not. Thomas' induction got me thinking about WHY I hold this opinion.

Some of my initial thoughts...

While PM and FT were primarily DHs for a good portion of their career, they still played the majority of their games in the field. DO and EM played the VAST majority of their career from the bench.

My view is that even if they played the field (at a "--" level), they would have earned more consideration for the Hall because their teams would have decided that their offensive contributions were worth their detractions in the field. Since the teams did not make that determination, they both have LARGE negatives against their inclusion.

I understand that this same argument can be used against PM and FT. And for both of them, I file those negatives in my calculus. But they both still played the majority of their games in the field.

Frank Thomas was a horrible first baseman.

 

[StanMarsh51]

In my book, Thomas and Molitor are deserving, but Martinez and Ortiz are not. Thomas' induction got me thinking about WHY I hold this opinion.

Some of my initial thoughts...

While PM and FT were primarily DHs for a good portion of their career, they still played the majority of their games in the field. DO and EM played the VAST majority of their career from the bench.

My view is that even if they played the field (at a "--" level), they would have earned more consideration for the Hall because their teams would have decided that their offensive contributions were worth their detractions in the field. Since the teams did not make that determination, they both have LARGE negatives against their inclusion.

I understand that this same argument can be used against PM and FT. And for both of them, I file those negatives in my calculus. But they both still played the majority of their games in the field.

Ummm.....Thomas played 41.8% of his games in the field, so the majority was at DH

That kinda changes things now...

 

[calsnowskier]

Ummm.....Thomas played 41.8% of his games in the field, so the majority was at DH

That kinda changes things now...

You are right. I thought I saw that he had played the majority of his games in the field.

However, his ELITE period (91-97) he played 789 games @ 1B vs 222 games @ DH. Granted, this is a cherry-picked sample, but this is what he made the hall on. If he never played a game outside of this period, he would still be a HOFer.

 

[calsnowskier]

Frank Thomas was a horrible first baseman.

Kinda my point. The Sox (mainly) made the decision to play him in the field despite his deficiencies because his bat was all-time-elite.

The BoSox and M's never made that determination on Martinez or Ortiz.

 

[calsnowskier]

To me, this is the obvious prevailing opinion. However, I ask you and others that feel this way to look at this from this one angle.

The Mariners asked Martinez to do this one specific baseball job. He did it, and did it better than almost all of his contemporaties. As such, is it right to hold against him of doing the job his team asked him to do?

Does Lenny Harris belong in the Hall?

 

[steveringo]

I remember Thomas as a great hitter... But I remember him more for his abnormally large strike zone. It was like the umps all decided to be Enrico Palazzo during his at bats...

 

[BigDDude]

Does Lenny Harris belong in the Hall?

Is pinch hitter a designated lineup spot? Is there an award for pinch hiting called the Lenny Harris award?

 

[calsnowskier]

Is pinch hitter a designated lineup spot? Is there an award for pinch hiting called the Lenny Harris award?

He did his job better than any other player in the history of the game. I would submit that the gap between him and Matt Stairs or Gates Brown (probably the next two greatest PHers of all time) is MUCH wider than Edgar and Ortiz or anyone else you want to insert into the argument.

 

[BigDDude]

He did his job better than any other player in the history of the game. I would submit that the gap between him and Matt Stairs or Gates Brown (probably the next two greatest PHers of all time) is MUCH wider than Edgar and Ortiz or anyone else you want to insert into the argument.

This should come as no shock.

Apparently we disagree on the subject.

And, once an argument gets down to splitting hairs, I lose interest.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Not with the PED cloud around Ortiz.

Outside of the assholes who just won't vote for anyone from the steroid era, steroids only seem to be a problem for players people dislike and Ortiz is Mr. Popularity. I don't think he has any business being in the Hall, I don't think any career DH does, but I would be shocked if he's not a first ballot.

The man is practically the face of baseball right now.

 

[calsnowskier]

This should come as no shock.

Apparently we disagree on the subject.

And, once an argument gets down to splitting hairs, I lose interest.

For the record, I believe Martinez deserves consideration. He just doesn't get MY vote.

I also think (to a lessor extent, though) that Harris deserves consideration (he also doesn't get my vote). When someone is THAT MUCH better than anyone else who has ever done what he does, he deserves, AT LEAST, consideration.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Edgar martinez should have probably made it to the HOF... But besides only being a DH, the reasons why i think he did not make it was

1. 18 seasons only 2055 games- that is an average of 114 games per season
2. 6 seasons where he did not play 100 games
3. short of 3000 hits and 500 HRs

 

[calsnowskier]

Edgar martinez should have probably made it to the HOF... But besides only being a DH, the reasons why i think he did not make it was

1. 18 seasons only 2055 games- that is an average of 114 games per season
2. 6 seasons where he did not play 100 games
3. short of 3000 hits and 500 HRs

Interesting points.

Keeping a player from playing the field removes the possibility of them getting hurt in the field, thus effecting their accumulated stats. Given this, Edgar was still only about a 70% player.

Would Eric Davis be a HOFer if he did not ruin himself in the 1990 World Series diving for a ball while playing CF?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Edgar martinez should have probably made it to the HOF... But besides only being a DH, the reasons why i think he did not make it was

1. 18 seasons only 2055 games- that is an average of 114 games per season
2. 6 seasons where he did not play 100 games
3. short of 3000 hits and 500 HRs

In all fairness, he was a September callup in 2 of those seasons where he came up for a cup of tea (maybe a donut or two as well)...should we really hold that against him?