THN's All Time Top 20 at every position

[devs30rko]

i'd also give a nod to anderchyuk for the hall before newy

 

[HonusWagner66]

Nice list. I agree with you all about Potvin. He was a huge force on those great Islander teams. Ovi and Sid on the list already? Really?

OV has won the Hart Trophy as many times as the 12 guys below him combined. Actually I think he's won it as many as the 7 guys above him too.

I think he belongs on the list.

Crosby's a little more debatable, but I'd still stick him on there. I'm incredibly biased though.

 

[Jimmy_the_Tongue]

Where's my boy Wendel Clark?....

 

[forty_three]

1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Patrick Roy
3. Martin Brodeur
4. Jacques Plante
5. Dominik Hasek
6. Glenn Hall
7. Ken Dryden
8. Bill Durnan
9. George Hainsworth
10. Turk Broda
11. Bernie Parent
12. Frank Brimsek
13. Grant Fuhr
14. Georges Vezina
15. Chuck Gardiner
16. Clint Benedict
17. Tony Esposito
18. Ed Belfour
19. Billy Smith
20. Lorne Chabot

Oy - fucking - vey. My avatar frowns upon these shenanigans.

At least they remembered the existence of Brimsek and Benedict. Belfour deserves to be on this list as much as Mike Tyson deserves to be on a "Good Husbands" list.

Gardiner? Really? Has to be the "I must put someone obscure on so everyone will think I'm smart like Jim Rome" pick. WTF?

Glad I don't subscribe to that rag anymore, if this is the quality you can expect from them nowadays.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'd drop Mess out of the top 10. The guy was an amazing winner, but I never thought he was better than the likes of Espo, Clarke, Yzerman, etc.

You need to spend less time at HFBoards then. Once Messier was a #1 center in the NHL, the multiple choice question consisted of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Messier; and there was no wrong answer. Some of those guys seem to forget that- just because he was good enough to play professional hockey 8 years following his injury problems in 1997.


THN operated under the "we can't change anything from the 1997 list" rule for these, which they admit in the magazine is why some guys retained unusually high positioning despite the fall of their records and less astounding-ness of their accomplishments (Sawchuk). I think they covered things better in the Great Debates magazine.

 

[BostonAJ]

Once Messier was a #1 center in the NHL, the multiple choice question consisted of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Messier; and there was no wrong answer.

I don't recall a time when Messier was ever mentioned in the same sentence with Gretzky and Lemieux. I do remember Yzerman being in that sentence, tho. Maybe that's what you're thinking? Mess was on some great teams, was awesome in the playoffs, but never had a peak like the aforementioned.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I don't recall a time when Messier was ever mentioned in the same sentence with Gretzky and Lemieux. I do remember Yzerman being in that sentence, tho. Maybe that's what you're thinking? Mess was on some great teams, was awesome in the playoffs, but never had a peak like the aforementioned.

He won two Hart trophies in three years (one year after becoming a #1 center). One was unanimous. Dominated the 1990 and 1994 playoffs for 30 points. Was a runner-up for a third Hart two years later.

Yzerman did absolutely none of the above- and that's with Devellano wanting him to do nothing but score.


...I mean, there's a reason THN had Messier at #12 and Yzerman at #78 in 1997. Those 155 points in his prime (an anomaly) were a lot emptier than his contributions as a leader in the Dead Puck Era.

 

[BostonAJ]

He won two Hart trophies in three years (one year after becoming a #1 center). One was unanimous. Dominated the 1990 and 1994 playoffs for 30 points. Was a runner-up for a third Hart two years later.

Yzerman did absolutely none of the above- and that's with Devellano wanting him to do nothing but score.


...I mean, there's a reason THN had Messier at #12 and Yzerman at #78 in 1997. Those 155 points in his prime (an anomaly) were a lot emptier than his contributions as a leader in the Dead Puck Era.

All true. Tho I'd like to add that one of Messier's Harts was stolen (friggin' Edmonton voters), and in 92 I still think Lemieux was the best player in the world. Maybe Roy. Messier going to New York really helped his status, IMO. And I don't think Yzerman's best offensive year was an anomaly. Yzerman was ridiculously talented. It was only for a couple of years, but hockey circles did talk about Gretzky, Lemieux and Yzerman for a reason. Stevie Y could make things happen on the ice that Messier never could. Better skater, better vision, better stickhandler, better passer. It seemed like his skills eroded kind of quickly, tho. Everyone says Bowman turned his game around, but you could tell he couldn't do the same things anymore.

As for Espo, Clarke, and Mikita I never saw those guys play live, so I can only go by a stat sheet and the stories I've heard. Their heroics impress the hell out of me, tho. And I remember watching Moose and thinking, "This isn't the best player in the world. He's really good, but not that good." But like you said, he won two Harts, two Pearsons, a Conn Smythe and made five All Star Teams, so what the hell do I know.

I could just never get past the eyeball test. I didn't see what everybody else in the world saw. Probably didn't help that his Oilers slaughtered my Bruins in the 90 Finals. And that's just about when his status really skyrocketed. And then there's all those stories about him being a dick. So there you have it.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Messier - Yzerman is a tough one.
Yzerman won the Pearson (i give more value to this than the heart) in a year when Wayne and Mario were both healthy. He had two 60 + goal seasons. He won a selke; I don't think any other 60 goal scorer ever won a Selke.

Messier was endurance personified. He thrived in the playoffs like few others have (through his WHOLE career). He won two Pearsons.

If I had to pick one to have on my team I'd close my eyes and flip a coin. If I had a three-sided coin I'd put Sakic on there too.

I can't choose between these three.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Messier going to New York really helped his status, IMO.

Well, yeah. :p

That's why he wanted out so bad in 1991. He felt he had nothing left to prove in Edmonton after leading the Oilers to a championship as THE man. Nowadays, we call that Niedermayer Syndrome: To be utterly bored with winning championships. So, what did he do? He stared down 50 years worth of history- just for shits and giggles- and got the job done. His stretch from 1990-1996 is some of the most complete hockey that's ever been played.

Was he a dick at the time? Yes. He absolutely undermined coaches' authorities, but in the end, he was right more often than he was wrong. He went from being a hockey player to being an on-ice general, and he didn't need scoring titles to be considered straight-up better than Gretzky and Lemieux, in their primes, on two separate occasions.

I like Yzerman's 1989 Pearson as much as the next guy, but he won it for the same reason Lemieux won the 1986 Pearson (141 Points to Gretzky's 215): Players liked to crown new blood. Anyway, my point is, prior to 1994, there were four Hart winners in 14 years. Three of the four had multiple Harts, and that's the sentence that includes Messier with Lemieux and Gretzky. Doesn't matter how fast you can stickhandle when you can just knock the other guy the fuck out with an elbow.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Oy - fucking - vey. My avatar frowns upon these shenanigans.

At least they remembered the existence of Brimsek and Benedict. Belfour deserves to be on this list as much as Mike Tyson deserves to be on a "Good Husbands" list.

Gardiner? Really? Has to be the "I must put someone obscure on so everyone will think I'm smart like Jim Rome" pick. WTF?

Glad I don't subscribe to that rag anymore, if this is the quality you can expect from them nowadays.

What took you so long forty?

Thought you would have been post #2 in this thread. Did you see that somebody even beat you to the Tretiak reference?

You're losing your touch :p

 

[dash]

His stretch from 1990-1996 is some of the most complete hockey that's ever been played.

And then there were the Vancouver years

/I saw Mess crush the hopes and dreams of some very good Flames teams on several occasions, I love Stevie Y, but I would put Mess above him.

//I did like this one Messier pass, though (put it right on the tape of Theo's stick)

 

[Automattic]

The only thing I'd like to say about Lidstrom is that he is the only top 5 player at any position whos stock is still rising...



(I'd also bet you one snowblower that Yzerman should be above Sakic)

 

[forty_three]

What took you so long forty?

Thought you would have been post #2 in this thread. Did you see that somebody even beat you to the Tretiak reference?

You're losing your touch :p

Stupid job.

The deciding factor in the Messier / Yzerman argument must include the fact that one of them would slash their own grandmother in the throat to get to the net. And then whine like a little girl if it got called.

Yzerman, in addition to being the better hockey player, is the better man.

 

[BostonAJ]

Nowadays, we call that Niedermayer Syndrome: To be utterly bored with winning championships.

Nice. What do they call it when a player is sick of losing? The Dionne Infection?

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Nice. What do they call it when a player is sick of losing? The Dionne Infection?

Sabresitis

 

[Eddie_Shack]

This is more of a personal beef with the guy than anything else, but having Clarke over Sakic bothers me. Sakic is one of the classiest, clutchiest, most dominant dudes ever to lace them up. Clarke was a bad dude with loads of skill, but I think he gets way too much credit for his "heroics" in '72. I'm sure an army of angry Canadians will be at my house in about three and a half hours, but to me it was a POS bitch move, and if Kharlamov pulled that on Clarke he would be infamous for being a typical sissy Russian who cheap shots and runs.

 

[BOSSMANPC]

My monthly Gilbert Perreault bitch session. Started with an expansion team and at the time broke the record for rookie goal scoring. One of the best skaters and stick handlers I've ever seen.

Very unappreciated. He was one of the few players when he picked up the puck for one of those great end to end rushes people got out of their seats. I saw that guy make some of the great defense men of that time look pretty silly on many occasions.