The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract

[jvett77]

I never really looked at Koufax's stats before. Pretty interesting. He was before my time so I don't know why he retired, but he has to be one of the only Hall of Famers that were done by age 30. I almost think that if he had had an injury and come back and been mediocre until he was 37 or something he might not have made the hall. I guess he used George Costanza's idea about going out on a high note.
Imagine if Ryan Howard had just quit at age 28 and become a missionary or something. He would have been legendary. Of course he would have missed out on 130 million bucks or something.

Koufax developed premature arthritis in his arm. One day he couldn't straighten it out. That must have been scary.

 

[navamind]

Allen exceeds some of the average Hall of Fame batting statistics called Black Ink and Gray Ink stats where a player led the league or appeared in the top 10 in certain hitting categories. He missed in the WAR stat by 10 points and Hall of Fame Standards by 11 points. There's probably a bunch of players like him with great stats but......

Check near the bottom of the page: Dick Allen Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Keep in mind WAR"s an accumulative stat and Dick Allen had a relatively short career (only 7315 PA and 1749 games). He averaged 5.7 WAR per 650 PA. Just for reference, Frank Thomas is 5.3.

Allen should be in IMO.

 

[northeastphillyguy]

Keep in mind WAR"s an accumulative stat and Dick Allen had a relatively short career (only 7315 PA and 1749 games). He averaged 5.7 WAR per 650 PA. Just for reference, Frank Thomas is 5.3.

Allen should be in IMO.

Sports writers don't like him. He treated them in rude fashion. That will always hold him back.

 

[Cedrique]

Sports writers don't like him. He treated them in rude fashion. That will always hold him back.

Yeah, I'm sure that probably had something to do with it. But I seem to remember Jim Rice wasn't really well liked by sports writers either and he was kind of a borderline guy that ended up getting in.

 

[Omar 382]

One thing that shocked me is Joe Morgan over Hornsby. I'd probably even take Lajoie, Collins, and Gheringer over Morgan. There's no way 14 years later, James can stand by that statement with the statistics available

 

[navamind]

One thing that shocked me is Joe Morgan over Hornsby. I'd probably even take Lajoie, Collins, and Gheringer over Morgan. There's no way 14 years later, James can stand by that statement with the statistics available

Agreed on Hornsby, Collins and Lajoie. Not sure about Gehringer though. Morgan does have a higher OPS+ (and that's with Morgan having about two more seasons worth of plate appearances over Gehringer) and Morgan was a much better base stealer.

All great players though and seem like the obvious top 5 2B (though cases could be made for Carew and Frisch, I guess).

 

[Omar 382]

Agreed on Hornsby, Collins and Lajoie. Not sure about Gehringer though. Morgan does have a higher OPS+ (and that's with Morgan having about two more seasons worth of plate appearances over Gehringer) and Morgan was a much better base stealer.

All great players though and seem like the obvious top 5 2B (though cases could be made for Carew and Frisch, I guess).

Agreed. Gheringer was borderline, but I think he is also top 5. I don't even think James had him in his top 5. Have you read the book? It's very good, but you can just tell how dated it is when he's talking about things like "Win Shares" and "Secondary Average"

 

[navamind]

Agreed. Gheringer was borderline, but I think he is also top 5. I don't even think James had him in his top 5. Have you read the book? It's very good, but you can just tell how dated it is when he's talking about things like "Win Shares" and "Secondary Average"

Pass.

(Yes, read it a while back. Borrowed it from the library for a while, lol. Great book, but I can't remember the list time I saw anyone actually cite those stats.)

Win Shares is pretty outdated, especially with WAR around.

 

[Omar 382]

Pass.

(Yes, read it a while back. Borrowed it from the library for a while, lol. Great book, but I can't remember the list time I saw anyone actually cite those stats.)

Win Shares is pretty outdated, especially with WAR around.

Yeah, it kind of gets annoying because he jacks off to those stats throughout the book and they're not even reliable.

Oh well. It's fun to judge people of the past. Thank God my generation will never be prone to ridicule from future generations who have more knowledge available to them than mine has had.

 

[Cedrique]

One thing Morgan has going for him is he played almost all his games as a second baseman. I don't know about all of those guys but some played other positions. Carew was an incredible pure hitter, especially in the era he played in but a lot of his years he was a first baseman with mediocre defensive skills so the stats aren't as impressive as if he were still playing second base.

 

[Omar 382]

Morgan is certainly a superior player to Carew. Morgan put up better offensive production, played better defense, and played his entire career at second base. But to say he is better than Hornsby is blasphemous

 

[navamind]

This is true. I forgot that Carew has more games at 1st than 2nd.

 

[navamind]

Bobby Grich is up there as well, though his relatively short career (at least compared to the other top 2B) keeps him out of the conversation for top 5 IMO. Very underrated player. Career .266/.371/.424 (125 OPS+) hitter and played very good defense at 2B. Had some great years in Baltimore. He even led the AL in OPS+ in the strike-shortened 1981 season. Somewhat surprisingly, he's about a full win behind Dwight Evans and Rickey Henderson that year.

Still can't believe he isn't in the HOF.

 

[Cedrique]

Bobby Grich is up there as well, though his relatively short career (at least compared to the other top 2B) keeps him out of the conversation for top 5 IMO. Very underrated player. Career .266/.371/.424 (125 OPS+) hitter and played very good defense at 2B. Had some great years in Baltimore. He even led the AL in OPS+ in the strike-shortened 1981 season. Somewhat surprisingly, he's about a full win behind Dwight Evans and Rickey Henderson that year.

Still can't believe he isn't in the HOF.

I can't agree more. You have to think if he played in the times we are in now where more statistical information is available he'd get more consideration. He has a higher career WAR than Ryne Sandberg and a lot of other guys. Except for his rookie season where he only had 104 plate appearances, every single year he played he had an OBP over .350. I guess he didn't get enough individual attention, like AS games, Gold Gloves, top 5 MVP voting, etc. but those things don't always go to the player most deserving. (exhibit A- the Gold Glove in Bobby Abreu's trophy case).