The Myth of Rebuilding: When is it time to call it something else?

[cezero]

Some so-called fans on the old ESPN board would make excuses for organizational failure from top to bottom for the M's by claiming "well that's just how rebuilding goes herp derp." It was their default statement no matter the problem, and it frustrated real fans.

The last time the M's developed a decent player was when?

Answer that honestly, and then ask how could anybody have faith in one of the most incompetent FO and managing/training staffs in all of baseball for a decade to "develop" anything? Carp is the most recent to go to a competent organization and flourish. They held him accountable, got him to drop a bunch of fat, and now he can actually make routine plays without injuring himself like he did here. There have been many others in the past decade to go elsewhere and do well, too.

A lot of good people on here are capable of discussing this without freaking out and saying anybody who looks at the situation prosaically is negative. When is it time to stop calling it rebuilding and call it something else, no matter the franchise we're talking about?

 

[unlvmariners]

There is no doubt that this organization is taking the long road to "rebuilding" Some of that is due to bad luck and some is due to bad mistakes. I don't blame Jack Z entirely because I also think he has done a lot of good for the organization and I think his bosses are idiots.

That being said I don't think this team is as far from success as it feels right now. There needs to be improvements from certain players, if they don't improve they need to be replaced.

I honestly think that adding a good everyday outfielder and a solidified rotation can change this team a lot. One of the reasons I would like to see Ellbury on the team next year.

For next season I don't want to see anymore of this Aaron Harang, Bonderman, Joe Saunders etc. crap in the rotation.

 

[Destroydacre]

The Mariners don't rebuild. Howie and Chuck run the organization into the ground while somehow managing to make money. They sit in their executive suite laughing and counting said money, every once in awhile making a statement about how the media hates them. The end.

 

[cezero]

I'm with unlv on not blaming z exclusively. That wouldn't be fair. But there are massive problems with little in sight to fix them, IMO.

14 games under .500 right now

27th in AVG
25th in OBP
24th in runs

Pitching much worse than last year.

I'm enthusiastic about Seager, Miller, Felix (despite the hand wringing about his past few starts), and possibly Walker. Morales too if he stays. Ackley has a long way to go go prove anything is real, IMO, as does Franklin. Who else is in this organization is going to fill in all of the gaping holes? They're everywhere.

I'd love for most of the other guys to just be "this far" from suddenly playing mediocre ball, but I am more dubious than most, I guess.

This really gets at my question. How many more years of this before you have to call it something besides "rebuilding"? 2? 3? Another half decade or more?

 

[seahawksfan234]

I think that you can call it rebuilding when you're ridding the roster of older players and replacing them with younger ones.

But once you get that core of young players (which the Mariners have) is when you need to start supplementing it with proven veterans via free agency, something the Mariners have refused to do.

To the Mariners ownership I have to imagine the whole "rebuilding" is just an excuse not to spend money on veteran free agents, they have to appear like they care. The FO loves the concept of rebuilding because it allows them to keep the roster cheap while still taking in profits.

On a smaller note I think that there is a MAJOR lack of accountability in this franchise. I say that mostly because I look at how Mike Carp suddenly got in shape when he went to the Red Sox, and can't help but think "Why couldn't the Mariners get him to do that?".

That also makes me think why can't the Mariners get Justin Smoak, Jesus Montero or even Kendrys Morales to drop some weight and become more efficient base runners? Whoever is the Mariners equivalent of a strength and conditioning coach is seriously failing his job.

 

[dude82]

I think that you can call it rebuilding when you're ridding the roster of older players and replacing them with younger ones.

But once you get that core of young players (which the Mariners have) is when you need to start supplementing it with proven veterans via free agency, something the Mariners have refused to do.

To the Mariners ownership I have to imagine the whole "rebuilding" is just an excuse not to spend money on veteran free agents, they have to appear like they care. The FO loves the concept of rebuilding because it allows them to keep the roster cheap while still taking in profits.

On a smaller note I think that there is a MAJOR lack of accountability in this franchise. I say that mostly because I look at how Mike Carp suddenly got in shape when he went to the Red Sox, and can't help but think "Why couldn't the Mariners get him to do that?".

That also makes me think why can't the Mariners get Justin Smoak, Jesus Montero or even Kendrys Morales to drop some weight and become more efficient base runners? Whoever is the Mariners equivalent of a strength and conditioning coach is seriously failing his job.

First basemen and catchers are notoriously slow players. Sure, you'll get the occasional guy at that position who receives the backhanded compliment of being "fast for a catcher/first baseman", but that doesn't mean you start sending them more often or get more aggressive with them on the base paths. Slow is slow. Getting them to drop some pounds would probably impact their power in a negative way more than it would impact their base-running in a positive way. What they really need to do with those guys is remember that they're slow and stop trying to get an extra base out of them when you know the end result is going to be an easy out at third or home. Save the attempts at getting an extra base for the guys with some actual speed instead.

Speaking of which... they have fast guys on the team, yet those guys apparently don't have the green light to run on a straight steal or even be on the move with a slow guy at the plate to try to break up the double play. There's too much station-to-station stuff on this team and it has cost them runs. If you're looking for one of the reasons why this team isn't scoring much with RISP, that's a big one right there. We've hit into the 7th most double plays in the majors this year and while having as many slow guys back-to-back in the order as they have is part of it, they're not running their fast guys as often as they should to at least give defenders something to think about as they're trying to turn it. This is something that hasn't made sense to me all year.

 

[1905 Giants]

I think we need some small-ball.

And I loathe he word "rebuilding"

 

[Logicallylethal]

The rebuilding process started once we traded Cliff Lee for Smoak and prospects...since then we've hit a string of bad luck and we've been trying to piece together the pieces to fill in the gaps

I understand the frustration...trust me I'm frustrated too. But people are forgetting some of the good that Jack Z has brought to the team.

- We've developed Kyle Seager (easily one of the most reliable hitters on our team and quickly improving as a third basemen)
- We traded away an average starter for our best middle of the order hitter (Kendrys Morales)
- We dumped Ichiro and got back a closer (Danny Farqurar)
- We've brought up two young exciting guys in the middle of the infield that look like they can be starters for years to come (Miller and Franklin)
- We found a gem in Iwak (seriously...it's not that easy to land such a dominant #2 starter like that)

I agree that not a lot of it has resulted in any drastic changes in the W/L column...but you would have to be crazy to say that you don't see the potential in this team now. Along with all of our young guys...we have Ackley and Smoak who have turned it around as well and quickly establishing themselves as solid hitters in the lineup.

Think about the year we've had. How many heart breaking losses have we had where we either blew the game, lost a crucial one run game or lost it in extras on a walk off? There have been at least 12-14...maybe more. If we just win half of those we're very close to .500

 

[AceKeptic]

Perhaps a better way to "rebuild" is basically what they did with the Seahawks. Five years ago, they hit a big speed bump when Holmgren announced when he'd retire, but they sure as heck bounced back to what we've been seeing lately.

Mariners need to take a page from THAT playbook if they wish to get ANYWHERE other than where they've been since 2004.

 

[Destroydacre]

Perhaps a better way to "rebuild" is basically what they did with the Seahawks. Five years ago, they hit a big speed bump when Holmgren announced when he'd retire, but they sure as heck bounced back to what we've been seeing lately.

Mariners need to take a page from THAT playbook if they wish to get ANYWHERE other than where they've been since 2004.

The difference is Paul Allen actually cared enough to step in and fire Jim Mora (kinda screwing him over) and bring in Pete Carroll and John Schneider. A big risk, but one that worked out. On the other hand the M's are run by Hiroshi Yamauchi who cares so much about his team he's never seen them play, even when they were in Japan. Any owner who gave a flying fuck about the Mariners would have canned Howie and Chuck years ago. A rebuild will not start until the Mariners are sold to an owner who gives a damn about this team. I expect hell to freeze over first.

 

[Baseballnut77]

The difference is Paul Allen actually cared enough to step in and fire Jim Mora (kinda screwing him over) and bring in Pete Carroll and John Schneider. A big risk, but one that worked out. On the other hand the M's are run by Hiroshi Yamauchi who cares so much about his team he's never seen them play, even when they were in Japan. Any owner who gave a flying fuck about the Mariners would have canned Howie and Chuck years ago. A rebuild will not start until the Mariners are sold to an owner who gives a damn about this team. I expect hell to freeze over first.

hasn't worked out yet as i dont recall the seahawks winning a title yet. But i agree they are in a better place right at this moment

 

[Destroydacre]

hasn't worked out yet as i dont recall the seahawks winning a title yet. But i agree they are in a better place right at this moment

Regardless, the change has put the Seahawks in a position to make the playoffs and potentially win a super bowl, now and seemingly for the next several years. The Mariners haven't been in a position to compete for a playoff spot, let alone a world series in over a decade and they show zero signs of being capable of making that jump. When you change GMs and managers as much as the Mariners have and year after year the results are the same, there's only one place left to look.

 

[seahawksfan234]

First basemen and catchers are notoriously slow players. Sure, you'll get the occasional guy at that position who receives the backhanded compliment of being "fast for a catcher/first baseman", but that doesn't mean you start sending them more often or get more aggressive with them on the base paths. Slow is slow. Getting them to drop some pounds would probably impact their power in a negative way more than it would impact their base-running in a positive way. What they really need to do with those guys is remember that they're slow and stop trying to get an extra base out of them when you know the end result is going to be an easy out at third or home. Save the attempts at getting an extra base for the guys with some actual speed instead.

Speaking of which... they have fast guys on the team, yet those guys apparently don't have the green light to run on a straight steal or even be on the move with a slow guy at the plate to try to break up the double play. There's too much station-to-station stuff on this team and it has cost them runs. If you're looking for one of the reasons why this team isn't scoring much with RISP, that's a big one right there. We've hit into the 7th most double plays in the majors this year and while having as many slow guys back-to-back in the order as they have is part of it, they're not running their fast guys as often as they should to at least give defenders something to think about as they're trying to turn it. This is something that hasn't made sense to me all year.

They are notoriously slow but I recall seeing something saying that not only were those guys notoriously slow but some of the worst base runners in the past 5 years. Plus I think eventually some team will come to the realization that they can get some extra value out of their first basemen if they get them to do some speed training and actually get in shape.

I mean why should first basemen be slow? Think about it. I think these guys are just given a pass to be lazy. You can increase foot speed without sacrificing strength. I'm not saying these guys are going to suddenly become Rickey Henderson out there, but they can increase their speed and become more valuable players.

Getting them to drop some pounds would probably impact their power in a negative way more than it would impact their base-running in a positive way

This is one of the biggest fallacies in all of sports.

A lot of speed training just involves increasing the explosion in your legs and working on leg exercises more often. I personally believe that the whole "cardio kills strength gains" is a myth. I love baseball but I've always felt that a huge majority of MLB players don't take conditioning very seriously. You don't have to have a 30% bodyfat ratio to maintain power, that's just ridiculous. You have to maintain a very high calorie diet to put on a lot of muscle, but once you go on a cut you can maintain your strength gains while eliminating the excess fat, it's what bodybuilders do.

 

[cezero]

That also makes me think why can't the Mariners get Justin Smoak, Jesus Montero or even Kendrys Morales to drop some weight and become more efficient base runners? Whoever is the Mariners equivalent of a strength and conditioning coach is seriously failing his job.

There's no excuse for it.

Montero was a complete fat fuck. No little kid like that should be allowed to even put on a uniform if they're that fat after before or spring training. He completely ignored any nutrition program they put him on from October-April, and should have been held accountable for it.

It took far too long to send him down to AAA. Even down there, they should have required his obese ass to drop some lard before playing him a single day. And surprise of surprises, he injured himself on a routine play shortly after arriving.

Smoak's case isn't so bad, IMO. And Morales had proven that he could hit as a fatty before. I don't see any reason to get on him too hard about it since he's not an everyday defensive player.

 

[cezero]

The rebuilding process started once we traded Cliff Lee for Smoak and prospects...since then we've hit a string of bad luck and we've been trying to piece together the pieces to fill in the gaps

I understand the frustration...trust me I'm frustrated too. But people are forgetting some of the good that Jack Z has brought to the team.

- We've developed Kyle Seager (easily one of the most reliable hitters on our team and quickly improving as a third basemen)
- We traded away an average starter for our best middle of the order hitter (Kendrys Morales)
- We dumped Ichiro and got back a closer (Danny Farqurar)
- We've brought up two young exciting guys in the middle of the infield that look like they can be starters for years to come (Miller and Franklin)
- We found a gem in Iwak (seriously...it's not that easy to land such a dominant #2 starter like that)

I agree that not a lot of it has resulted in any drastic changes in the W/L column...but you would have to be crazy to say that you don't see the potential in this team now. Along with all of our young guys...we have Ackley and Smoak who have turned it around as well and quickly establishing themselves as solid hitters in the lineup.

Think about the year we've had. How many heart breaking losses have we had where we either blew the game, lost a crucial one run game or lost it in extras on a walk off? There have been at least 12-14...maybe more. If we just win half of those we're very close to .500

"If they had only" is a fun game to play. I prefer to look at the actual reasons the team loses close games instead of wondering what might have been if only the cruel universe hadn't attacked them.

A good team makes its own luck. It's great that you think they have so much potential, but it's incredibly misplaced optimism, IMO.

The players you listed are all fine. Even with them, the team is another dozen pieces away from playing .500 ball consistently. So again, to get back to my original question, how many more years of this before you have to call rebuilding something else?

 

[blstoker]

First basemen and catchers are notoriously slow players. Sure, you'll get the occasional guy at that position who receives the backhanded compliment of being "fast for a catcher/first baseman", but that doesn't mean you start sending them more often or get more aggressive with them on the base paths. Slow is slow. Getting them to drop some pounds would probably impact their power in a negative way more than it would impact their base-running in a positive way. What they really need to do with those guys is remember that they're slow and stop trying to get an extra base out of them when you know the end result is going to be an easy out at third or home. Save the attempts at getting an extra base for the guys with some actual speed instead.

The reason catchers and first basemen (and to a lesser extent third basemen) are typically slow is that you don't have to be fast to play the position. From little league up, coaches put there less athletic players there because the position do not require as much athleticism. My senior year in high school our catcher was thrown out at first on a relay throw from left field, he was just that slow (and he really wasn't a fat kid either). When you have a guy like Jarrod Dyson, you put him in centerfield, not first base.

Who has the most stolen bases as a catcher this season? I think it's Chris Stewart at 4. First base? I think it's Eric Hosmer with 10. I'd love to see a guy like Gerald Perry at first base, but he's the exception.

 

[seahawksfan234]

The reason catchers and first basemen (and to a lesser extent third basemen) are typically slow is that you don't have to be fast to play the position. From little league up, coaches put there less athletic players there because the position do not require as much athleticism. My senior year in high school our catcher was thrown out at first on a relay throw from left field, he was just that slow (and he really wasn't a fat kid either). When you have a guy like Jarrod Dyson, you put him in centerfield, not first base.

Who has the most stolen bases as a catcher this season? I think it's Chris Stewart at 4. First base? I think it's Eric Hosmer with 10. I'd love to see a guy like Gerald Perry at first base, but he's the exception.

I understand what you're saying but I'm not talking about making these guys run 4.3 40s, I just would like to see them improve enough to be able to get from first to third, to be fast enough that tagging and taking a base is a realistic option. Little things like that add up over the 162 game season and I think that if teams started taking the speed training of their players seriously they would find a cheap way to add some wins over the course of the season.

The whole "Speed can't be taught" thing is only true to a certain extent. Everyone has a natural threshold that cannot be crossed but with the correct training, dedication and nutrition you can improve your speed/base-running ability.

There is a difference between not being naturally athletically gifted and just not trying. I think that when you throw these guys at catcher and first base with the mentality that they don't need to work on their foot speed, you're never going to see improvement.

 

[dude82]

I understand what you're saying but I'm not talking about making these guys run 4.3 40s, I just would like to see them improve enough to be able to get from first to third, to be fast enough that tagging and taking a base is a realistic option. Little things like that add up over the 162 game season and I think that if teams started taking the speed training of their players seriously they would find a cheap way to add some wins over the course of the season.

The whole "Speed can't be taught" thing is only true to a certain extent. Everyone has a natural threshold that cannot be crossed but with the correct training, dedication and nutrition you can improve your speed/base-running ability.

There is a difference between not being naturally athletically gifted and just not trying. I think that when you throw these guys at catcher and first base with the mentality that they don't need to work on their foot speed, you're never going to see improvement.

They tried with Montero and that had zero positive effect and may have taken even more attention off of his hitting than having him work on his defense at a position he wasn't going to play long-term did. He was still slow as molasses after an off-season of work on his running mechanics and the result was still a very slow catcher whose lack of hitting prowess this year made him totally useless. Morales, with his ankle and leg issues, is probably about as fast as he's going to get and if they were able to coax a little more speed out of him, it would be negligible at best. Smoak is another player that you're just not going to see going from first-to-third on a regular basis. I'm not suggesting that they let these guys be lazy because of the positions they play and they can try to work on their base running skills if they think it's an issue, but there's a reason they're playing the positions they're playing and the guys with speed are playing the positions they're playing.

Like I said, though, this is all a moot point if the guys that actually had speed were allowed to put it to use more often than they have been. Maybe next year, assuming we keep Morales to DH, they'll be able to add more speed to the lineup with guys like, perhaps, Ellsbury, Almonte and Romero in place of slow-as-molasses guys like Morse and Ibanez, we'll see more of that speed put to use and the lack of it from Morales and Smoak won't be as big an issue. I want to see more attempts at avoiding the double play that the slow guys hit into by sending the faster guys more often to try to break it up. I want to see guys with speed stealing bases to put pressure on the defense and the pitcher.

 

[wazzu31]

I understand what you're saying but I'm not talking about making these guys run 4.3 40s, I just would like to see them improve enough to be able to get from first to third, to be fast enough that tagging and taking a base is a realistic option. Little things like that add up over the 162 game season and I think that if teams started taking the speed training of their players seriously they would find a cheap way to add some wins over the course of the season.

The whole "Speed can't be taught" thing is only true to a certain extent. Everyone has a natural threshold that cannot be crossed but with the correct training, dedication and nutrition you can improve your speed/base-running ability.

There is a difference between not being naturally athletically gifted and just not trying. I think that when you throw these guys at catcher and first base with the mentality that they don't need to work on their foot speed, you're never going to see improvement.

Completely true, you can increase your 1st to 3rd speed greatly with technique, speed is also generated from instincts such as stealing bases and "range".

 

[Logicallylethal]

Our issue isn't Morale's ability to run the base paths...it's the inconsistency in the starting rotation...the at times unreliable bullpen...the terrible hitting with risp...etc

We can go down a whole list of things before we actually get to Morales and other slow middle of the order hitter's speeds on the base path.