the most important thing is

[indyflyr]

not who we got for gagne

or who we signed via free agency

it is the farm system. nobody is going to give us the next bernie parent for one year of gagne. i'm not saying holmer has done a stellar job in signing talent. i can deal with the pronger trade. but no more bleeding draft pics. we need to find cheap talent. that means drafting. at least we didn't lose much in terms of draft pics this offseason. but i was hoping holmer would not develop bob clarke tunnel vision. i'm not gonna say he has. but i'm not gonna say he isn't on the fence either.

 

[scottflyers88]

i am fine with trading picks as long as our team remains young. we just picked up meszaros and zherdev who are both young.

 

[FlyerFinFan]

i am fine with trading picks as long as our team remains young. we just picked up meszaros and zherdev who are both young.

===
Yep and face it they are on the verge of winning a cup you can't have everything you need to go balls out like the hawks....well maybe not as bad as the hawks did but you get my point. WINING THE CUP TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER EVERYTHING! : )

 

[ProppRules]

I agree on both sides here. THey are really raiding their system, and a few picks here and there would be nice. Also, there are no real studs in the minors. But, they do have young talent. SOme are bitching about Carter being untocuhable, but he is a 25 year old 40 goal scorer. Would you rather have a prospect in the system who projects out to that and is a few years younger? Richie and Zherdev are 25, JvR is 21, Giroux is 22, Carcillo and Powe are 25, and Leino is 26. That is 8 forwards 26 or younger. Meszaros is 24, Coburn and Carle are 25, and Bartulis is 23. That is 4 d-men under 26 as well. So 12 of your 18 skaters are considered young by NHL standards.

 

[TOX1]

The fact of the matter is like Indy touched on -- our farm system is depleted and needs to built back up so the big club can always be in a position of strength in any negotiation or trade.

Look at the Phils as an example. Blanton & Kendrick are total shit and they desperately need a # 3 starter, but they can't do squat because the whole system is (basically) garbage. Amaro has no choice (ahem) but to try to land a Leighton and hope for the best. Sounds familiar huh?

 

[FlyerFinFan]

The fact of the matter is like Indy touched on -- our farm system is depleted and needs to built back up so the big club can always be in a position of strength in any negotiation or trade.

Look at the Phils as an example. Blanton & Kendrick are total shit and they desperately need a # 3 starter, but they can't do squat because the whole system is (basically) garbage. Amaro has no choice (ahem) but to try to land a Leighton and hope for the best. Sounds familiar huh?

I guess my point is do you trade your top picks to give you the best chance of winning a cup? I say yes because in todays game you need to do everything you can to win the hardest trophy in sports. I just think the hawks over did it because they are completely gutting their team due to this...

 

[Vadered]

I guess my point is do you trade your top picks to give you the best chance of winning a cup? I say yes because in todays game you need to do everything you can to win the hardest trophy in sports. I just think the hawks over did it because they are completely gutting their team due to this...

Hey, triple F. Glad to see you over here.

As for our top picks, who really wants a third rounder? I kid, I kid. We actually have a first round pick this year. Not a second or a third (well, we have the Pittsburgh third rounder), but WE HAVE A FIRST! Also, we have potentially one of the best fifth round picks of all time. We traded it to Detroit for Leino. We also traded Tollefson. They can keep him.

 

[TOX1]

I guess my point is do you trade your top picks to give you the best chance of winning a cup? I say yes because in todays game you need to do everything you can to win the hardest trophy in sports. I just think the hawks over did it because they are completely gutting their team due to this...

I hear ya FFF and I agree to a certain extent, but selling/trading your future should be done at the end of the year when you can evaluate your roster more realistically.

The trading partners will always be there, so I say don't rush anything early until you see what direction your team is heading.



(btw - I'm with V....glad to see you here man!)

 

[indyflyr]

well, i certainly understand the argument to trade picks. i just don't see the logic. first, and i would think most easy to see, is that it hasn't worked now for over 2 decades. the flyers are solidly in first place when it comes to reaching for talent via trade. and we have not come up with the perfect fit yet. meszaros and zherdev might be young. but there is a reason they were not sought after on the trade and free agent market. we don't need unique fixer uppers. we need blue chip high end talent. nobody gives those up. you have to draft those. expect we never have draft pics because we trade them away for someone else's fixer upper opportunities.

giroux is the perfect example. he's given us great value for a couple years at less than a million a year. now he's gonna cash in, and should. but to survive in todays nhl CONSISTANTLY you need more giroux's in your system. but we always go out and try to trade for giroux type players (which don't exist cuz nobody will give them up). when we can't we take a step down in quality but not in money. then we wake up with scott hartnell cashing is 5 million dollar paycheck and wonder why we are out of money and can't make any moves.

 

[awaz]

well, i certainly understand the argument to trade picks. i just don't see the logic. first, and i would think most easy to see, is that it hasn't worked now for over 2 decades. the flyers are solidly in first place when it comes to reaching for talent via trade. and we have not come up with the perfect fit yet. meszaros and zherdev might be young. but there is a reason they were not sought after on the trade and free agent market. we don't need unique fixer uppers. we need blue chip high end talent. nobody gives those up. you have to draft those. expect we never have draft pics because we trade them away for someone else's fixer upper opportunities.

giroux is the perfect example. he's given us great value for a couple years at less than a million a year. now he's gonna cash in, and should. but to survive in todays nhl CONSISTANTLY you need more giroux's in your system. but we always go out and try to trade for giroux type players (which don't exist cuz nobody will give them up). when we can't we take a step down in quality but not in money. then we wake up with scott hartnell cashing is 5 million dollar paycheck and wonder why we are out of money and can't make any moves.

my only problem with that, is its difficult to find giroux-type players in the draft.. obviously top 5 or top 10 should turn into those type of players, but the flyers dont get picks that high.. obviously you can find guys that will be superstars, even in late rounds, so maybe the flyers need to improve their scouting.. but at least in the goalie department that seems to be the case considering ericsson was drafted late

i agree with you that in the cap era it is essential to build through the draft, or you will end up with a serious cap problem.. the best contracts on this team are leino and giroux, and its cause they are both on rookie contracts and have performed well above that.. my only point is that its not as easy as having the draft picks.. the right picks have to be made, and the right decisions have to be made with that players development, both of which can be crap shoots.. i think the flyers mentality is they would rather get a guy that makes 4 mil and produces on a 2 mil level, then to keep the draft pick and draft a guy that sits in the AHL his whole career.. at this point in the team's history the scouting is most likely sub-par because the team hasn't utilized the draft nearly as much as other teams, therefor there is no confidence in drafting a high quality player, hence the trades

not that i agree w/ that mentality, but that is my guess as to why homer trades draft picks like they're baseball cards.. my guess is the whole drafting/scouting system needs to be revamped in philly, and i think they're working on it.. but until they have confidence in the draft (like detroit has) we'll continue to see the flyers build through trades

 

[indyflyr]

could'nt agree with you more awaz. it comes down to taking your medicine. which is hard to do in philly, if not impossible. my wish was for holmer to allow the flyers to not make the playoffs for a couple years and restock the draft picks that were flushed down the toilet by clarke. that has not happened. which worries me. cuz in the wake of the pronger trade, we have had no 1st rounders, and hardly any second rounders left. that leaves him with trades using existing players. but they are all over valued. so we will get less than we trade away. that is a losing formula over the long haul. that is how you get the flyers 1999-2007.

can you image what a power house we would be if we had a farm system with 4-6 first and second round picks in it? it would create a whole lot of possibilities for the team and trades both.

 

[awaz]

could'nt agree with you more awaz. it comes down to taking your medicine. which is hard to do in philly, if not impossible. my wish was for holmer to allow the flyers to not make the playoffs for a couple years and restock the draft picks that were flushed down the toilet by clarke. that has not happened. which worries me. cuz in the wake of the pronger trade, we have had no 1st rounders, and hardly any second rounders left. that leaves him with trades using existing players. but they are all over valued. so we will get less than we trade away. that is a losing formula over the long haul. that is how you get the flyers 1999-2007.

can you image what a power house we would be if we had a farm system with 4-6 first and second round picks in it? it would create a whole lot of possibilities for the team and trades both.

agreed.. but at the same time i would rather the team be competitive every year, see a couple tweaks here and there, and start every season thinking they could win the cup.. rather than tanking a few seasons so they could rebuild for a few seasons and then a decade later win the cup.. i get too much enjoyment from talking/watching/living hockey for me to lose a big portion of that interest when the team sucks.. say what you want about die-hard, but its not as much fun when the team sucks

 

[indyflyr]

lol. well. i've been watching that strategy play out since the keenan teams of the mid 80's. and i have to tell you. winning the cup is way more fun that coming close every year.

 

[awaz]

lol. well. i've been watching that strategy play out since the keenan teams of the mid 80's. and i have to tell you. winning the cup is way more fun that coming close every year.

well then i've got a couple more years til i get tired of it

 

[indyflyr]

i'm not sure but i think you just called me old...

 

[TOX1]

lol Rep to the 2 of you.

 

[FlyerFinFan]

Nice being here too guys in the same room with reasonable intelligent hockey/Flyer fans. : ) Although sometimes its fun to rip into a bandwagon pen fan...haha!

I'd like to add that I'd only move my picks when I'm in a legitimate position to win and I have needs. The wings were fortunate enough to not have many needs and would keep drafting and stockpiling talent that to me is the ultimate strategy. But at this point the Flyers are close enough to taste it and we all know it so trading a 2nd rd for Mez was fine as it solidifies the 3rd pairing and a 5th for Leino I still can't believe it normally 5ths are a crapshoot! IMO anything past the 2nd rd in hockey is tough the NFL is a lot easier since the rosters are so large.

This year I'd be cool if they stood pat for now and see how things shake out during the season. They'd be primed to fill a need whether it be goalie or fwd in Feb and take a solid run at the grail!

 

[indyflyr]

yes! someone else who values the draft! draft more trade less. that's my motto.

anybody notice how this team came together for the first time in over a decade when holmer announced, and made good, that he would not make any trades. i think this team is so used to multiple trades that the players tend to wait and see instead of taking the bull by the horns. i've seen it year after year. i mean how can it not affect you year after year when you are told you are missing a critical piece?