Surgery List

[awaz]

the flyers pitfall has been not being patient with players.. sharp isn't the only one.. williams was let go early in his career, zubrus..pitkanen formed in to a top pair dman (albeit for carolina).. seidenberg is a force to be reckoned with on the backend.. i think if bob gets traded he could be another.. same goes for jvr..

the flyers do it over and over again.. if the value isn't there, i dont think you trade jvr.. everyone knocks the flyers for having very little homegrown talent, and this is why, fans go crazy on young players with potential when they dont reach that potential in the time frame the fan has laid out for them

 

[FlyerFinFan]

the flyers pitfall has been not being patient with players.. sharp isn't the only one.. williams was let go early in his career, zubrus..pitkanen formed in to a top pair dman (albeit for carolina).. seidenberg is a force to be reckoned with on the backend.. i think if bob gets traded he could be another.. same goes for jvr..

the flyers do it over and over again.. if the value isn't there, i dont think you trade jvr.. everyone knocks the flyers for having very little homegrown talent, and this is why, fans go crazy on young players with potential when they dont reach that potential in the time frame the fan has laid out for them

I agree Awaz its all about value no matter what you think about the player you don't dump him in a garage sale if anything you wait until the value goes up. There will always be a team that gets excited because the potential is there and if the right dman becomes available the Flyers may just make the move.

I honestly don't understand why teams/fans aren't a little more patient with players after all most of them are still kids learning their way in life. Some get it quicker than others and some simply have bad luck along the way.....but you don't ever make a bad move because you believe he should be pumping in 40 goals already as it could easily happen next year and it would be too late by that time. If the team listened to most of us DB, Harts, Coburn, etc...would all be gone already a constant shuffling of players into never never land.

Lavy said it best the kid needs to control what he can and get himself into the best shape possible if the team isn't sure you can trade for a position of need there will be a stretch of games where he'll dominate and bam you make the move. Be smart about it!

 

[mall3013]

the flyers pitfall has been not being patient with players.. sharp isn't the only one.. williams was let go early in his career, zubrus..pitkanen formed in to a top pair dman (albeit for carolina).. seidenberg is a force to be reckoned with on the backend.. i think if bob gets traded he could be another.. same goes for jvr..

the flyers do it over and over again.. if the value isn't there, i dont think you trade jvr.. everyone knocks the flyers for having very little homegrown talent, and this is why, fans go crazy on young players with potential when they dont reach that potential in the time frame the fan has laid out for them

The Rangers are the same way. I think it may be more common in the major markets. Detroit an exception, but I'm not too sure if I would put them into this category anyway.

 

[JMlion71]

I agree Awaz its all about value no matter what you think about the player you don't dump him in a garage sale if anything you wait until the value goes up. There will always be a team that gets excited because the potential is there and if the right dman becomes available the Flyers may just make the move.

I honestly don't understand why teams/fans aren't a little more patient with players after all most of them are still kids learning their way in life. Some get it quicker than others and some simply have bad luck along the way.....but you don't ever make a bad move because you believe he should be pumping in 40 goals already as it could easily happen next year and it would be too late by that time. If the team listened to most of us DB, Harts, Coburn, etc...would all be gone already a constant shuffling of players into never never land.

I don't think JVR will pump in 40 goals next year, or 30 either. The garage sale thing sounds about right: If he can get healthy, get back to where he was last year (20 goals) and play better defense, his value will be (more or less) restored. That would be good, for starters.

But there is also the risk that he could get injured again, or come back and continue to underperform. In which case, he would lose value in a trade.

 

[lasgop8]

of course you can point out 20 times that a name went high and didnt pan out, you could name 100.. i'm just saying there's no point to moving the guy if you dont get good value back

and how is it laughable that i'm comparing him to guys like thornton and staal, they both had slow starts to their career too.. its only laughable in the sense that they are established NHL players and JvR is entering his 4th (which might as well be 3rd)

its foolish to argue this though, thats why most of the time i dont get involved.. all the stats back your side, there's no question.. but if the flyers trade him now for the sake of trading him, and he pans out, the flyers will regret moving him.. the flyers aren't so desperate for cap space that they need to dump his 4.5 mil.. IMO they are being healthy and a little bit of experience away from being THE cup favorite.. hell they WERE the cup favorite after they knocked out the pens and the canucks lost

some guys take time to develop, and if 5 years (which is skewing it a lot towards your side btw, NCAAH is hardly a good development platform) is too long in your eyes, its too long in your eyes, nothing i can say will change that.. there are guys that took longer than 2.5 seasons to develop though.. in fact, most NHL players take longer than 2.5 seasons to develop

and btw, he was more than a point/game player in college, so to say he didnt show anything in college is false.. NCAAH isn't canadian juniors where you or i could put up a point/game

5 years for a developing player would be fine if the player would say be picked in the second round when your a number 2 pick you should step right into the league and play well like Kane if not your not needed. JVR being 23 going on 24 is not that young i dont know why your think that is so young guys like cooter have come in the league at 18 and have made an impact.

I am not saying we should trade him for nothing i dont know where you got that from but at at this point i'd like to trade him for a player like Schenn so we could get something back before people watch him play every night and find out he's not really that good

About the great JVR's college career his 1 point per game average was way down the list of leading scorers those years. Let me put it to you this way Brian Boyle who is a third line player at best had 53 points in 42 games that year so when i say he did nothing in college an inferior league to any number 2 pick i am not going out on a limb. boyle is pretty much the only guy i heard of in the leading scorers there are many guys that never even made the NHL that who had more points than our number 2 selection.

 

[lasgop8]

the flyers pitfall has been not being patient with players.. sharp isn't the only one.. williams was let go early in his career, zubrus..pitkanen formed in to a top pair dman (albeit for carolina).. seidenberg is a force to be reckoned with on the backend.. i think if bob gets traded he could be another.. same goes for jvr..

the flyers do it over and over again.. if the value isn't there, i dont think you trade jvr.. everyone knocks the flyers for having very little homegrown talent, and this is why, fans go crazy on young players with potential when they dont reach that potential in the time frame the fan has laid out for them

Home grown talent or not winning the cup is the goal here so if we can get players that help achieve that goal that is not from our system so be it.

 

[mall3013]

Home grown talent or not winning the cup is the goal here so if we can get players that help achieve that goal that is not from our system so be it.

How you doing sir?:charlie:

 

[lasgop8]

How you doing sir?:charlie:

Whats up Mally i hate watching hockey games that the Flyers are not involved in.

 

[mall3013]

Whats up Mally i hate watching hockey games that the Flyers are not involved in.

I hear ya! Btw, I have a thread mentioning It's Pelle Lindbergh's birthday today. This is the guy I grew up watching from his minor league days in Maine and being the best goalie since Parent. Unfortunate his loss was such a tragedy for the family, the Flyers organization, and fans who follow the NHL. I was a kid back then. I was lucky enough to watch his games live in person and on TV. Pelle's sister is the only living immediate family member alive today. His mother passed away a few months ago. Read Meltzer's blog today, very interesting.

 

[lasgop8]

I hear ya! Btw, I have a thread mentioning It's Pelle Lindbergh's birthday today. This is the guy I grew up watching from his minor league days in Maine and being the best goalie since Parent. Unfortunate his loss was such a tragedy for the family, the Flyers organization, and fans who follow the NHL. I was a kid back then. I was lucky enough to watch his games live in person and on TV. Pelle's sister is the only living immediate family member alive today. His mother passed away a few months ago. Read Meltzer's blog today, very interesting.

Lindbergh was good we may have had a few cups with him but that's the luck of the Flyers for a long time. i think in 2 years time we will be drinking from the cup although i hope it's sooner.

 

[awaz]

5 years for a developing player would be fine if the player would say be picked in the second round when your a number 2 pick you should step right into the league and play well like Kane if not your not needed. JVR being 23 going on 24 is not that young i dont know why your think that is so young guys like cooter have come in the league at 18 and have made an impact.

I am not saying we should trade him for nothing i dont know where you got that from but at at this point i'd like to trade him for a player like Schenn so we could get something back before people watch him play every night and find out he's not really that good

About the great JVR's college career his 1 point per game average was way down the list of leading scorers those years. Let me put it to you this way Brian Boyle who is a third line player at best had 53 points in 42 games that year so when i say he did nothing in college an inferior league to any number 2 pick i am not going out on a limb. boyle is pretty much the only guy i heard of in the leading scorers there are many guys that never even made the NHL that who had more points than our number 2 selection.

you're comparing jvr to guys that are out of the ordinary..

how much have the following done in there first 2.5 years in the league?
Victor Hedman
Jordan Staal
Kari Lehtonen
David Legwand
Andrei Zyuzin
Wade Redden
Oleg Tverdovsky
Alexei Yashin
Pat Falloon
Petr Nedved
Dave Chyzowski
Craig Simpson
Kirk Muller
Doug Smith

all 2nd overall picks that did very little in their first 2 season (or at least comprable to jvr) and there are still quality nhl players in that list.. granted, there are a couple full blown busts in there.. it was a weak draft, its on you if you expected too much from the guy.. not every draft has elite talent in it.. look at the rest of the first round in that draft

1. Kane - discussed
2. JvR - discussed
3. Turris - less effective than jvr so far
4. Hickey - hasn't made the NHL yet
5. Alzner - discussed
6. Gagner - aside from an 8 point game, he's accomplished nothing
7. Voracek - we like him, but what has he accomplished so far? 50 pts once
8. Hamill - started to peak into the bruins lineup this year
9. Couture - Discussed
10. Ellerby - starting to crack the panthers lineup
11. Sutter - nothing
12. McDonagh - started to have a massive impact this season
13. Eller - nothing
14. Shattenkirk - started making a name for himself this season
15. Plante - 10 nhl games
16. Gillies - 16 nhl points
17. Cherepanov - RIP
18. Cole - hasn't cracked the NHL yet
19. MacMillan - hasn't cracked the NHL yet
20. Esposito - its getting repetative
21. Nash - see above
22. Pacioretty - broke out this season for 65 points, (also went to michigan and is a 'power forward')
23. Blum - peaked into the preds lineup this season
24. Backlund - nothing
25. White - not in the nhl
26. Perron - a rare difference maker
27. Smith - started to peak in the wings lineup this season
28. Petrecki - not in the nhl
29. obrien - not in the nhl
30. ross - not in the nhl

it was a weak draft. in a weak draft you have to develop players.

 

[awaz]

Home grown talent or not winning the cup is the goal here so if we can get players that help achieve that goal that is not from our system so be it.

cup champs and their own draft picks since the lockout:

Bruins
Bergeron
Krejci
Lucic
Marchand
Seguin

Hawks
Kane
Toews
Keith
Bolland
Brouwer
Burish
Byfuglien
Hjallmarsson
Bickell
Niemi

Pens
Crosby
Malkin
Letang
Fleury
Staal
Jeffery
Kennedy
Lovejoy
Orpik
Scuderi
Talbot
Goligoski

now i'm tired of looking it all up, but the wings are notorious for homegrown talent and the canes won on the back of cam ward and eric staal, both of whom they drafted.. and then theres the ducks who got a great deal of help from getzlaf and ryan whom they drafted

more to come.

 

[awaz]

the flyers pitfall has been not being patient with players.. sharp isn't the only one.. williams was let go early in his career, zubrus..pitkanen formed in to a top pair dman (albeit for carolina).. seidenberg is a force to be reckoned with on the backend.. i think if bob gets traded he could be another.. same goes for jvr..

the flyers do it over and over again.. if the value isn't there, i dont think you trade jvr.. everyone knocks the flyers for having very little homegrown talent, and this is why, fans go crazy on young players with potential when they dont reach that potential in the time frame the fan has laid out for them

sharp - cup with the hawks
seidenberg - cup with the bruins
williams - probably going to win one this season

just a couple examples of guys that have it in them to win the cup but we traded them away too early.. maybe they weren't make-or-break guys for their cup teams, but they didnt prevent them from winning one

 

[awaz]

Whats up Mally i hate watching hockey games that the Flyers are not involved in.

this, i agree with. rep.

 

[lasgop8]

you're comparing jvr to guys that are out of the ordinary..

how much have the following done in there first 2.5 years in the league?
Victor Hedman
Jordan Staal
Kari Lehtonen
David Legwand
Andrei Zyuzin
Wade Redden
Oleg Tverdovsky
Alexei Yashin
Pat Falloon
Petr Nedved
Dave Chyzowski
Craig Simpson
Kirk Muller
Doug Smith

all 2nd overall picks that did very little in their first 2 season (or at least comprable to jvr) and there are still quality nhl players in that list.. granted, there are a couple full blown busts in there.. it was a weak draft, its on you if you expected too much from the guy.. not every draft has elite talent in it.. look at the rest of the first round in that draft

1. Kane - discussed
2. JvR - discussed
3. Turris - less effective than jvr so far
4. Hickey - hasn't made the NHL yet
5. Alzner - discussed
6. Gagner - aside from an 8 point game, he's accomplished nothing
7. Voracek - we like him, but what has he accomplished so far? 50 pts once
8. Hamill - started to peak into the bruins lineup this year
9. Couture - Discussed
10. Ellerby - starting to crack the panthers lineup
11. Sutter - nothing
12. McDonagh - started to have a massive impact this season
13. Eller - nothing
14. Shattenkirk - started making a name for himself this season
15. Plante - 10 nhl games
16. Gillies - 16 nhl points
17. Cherepanov - RIP
18. Cole - hasn't cracked the NHL yet
19. MacMillan - hasn't cracked the NHL yet
20. Esposito - its getting repetative
21. Nash - see above
22. Pacioretty - broke out this season for 65 points, (also went to michigan and is a 'power forward')
23. Blum - peaked into the preds lineup this season
24. Backlund - nothing
25. White - not in the nhl
26. Perron - a rare difference maker
27. Smith - started to peak in the wings lineup this season
28. Petrecki - not in the nhl
29. obrien - not in the nhl
30. ross - not in the nhl

it was a weak draft. in a weak draft you have to develop players.

Awaz you can pull up all the stats you want and do crazy comparisons to guys that played before you were even born The facts are still that facts JVR HAS DONE NOTHING IN HIS 5 YEARS SINCE BEING DRAFTED besides be the biggest pussy in the league and the biggest pussy ever to put on a Flyer uniform.There is nothing in his game that he has shown in 5 years that warrants we wait on him to develop because it very well may never happen as he is now damaged goods. He has gotten excused for his first 2 years b/c he went to college, then his second excuse was lets wait and see what happens b/c he played 4 good games out of a whole year and now the latest excuse is he was injured.How long does this go on until he retires??? the guys does not play Flyer hockey plain and simple he needs to go for a defenseman this summer.

 

[lasgop8]

cup champs and their own draft picks since the lockout:

Bruins
Bergeron
Krejci
Lucic
Marchand
Seguin

Hawks
Kane
Toews
Keith
Bolland
Brouwer
Burish
Byfuglien
Hjallmarsson
Bickell
Niemi

Pens
Crosby
Malkin
Letang
Fleury
Staal
Jeffery
Kennedy
Lovejoy
Orpik
Scuderi
Talbot
Goligoski

now i'm tired of looking it all up, but the wings are notorious for homegrown talent and the canes won on the back of cam ward and eric staal, both of whom they drafted.. and then theres the ducks who got a great deal of help from getzlaf and ryan whom they drafted

more to come.

Pens had a crappy team for years to get all of these guys i hope your not suggesting we play last place hockey to get all of these high draft picks.

i would keep going and destroying your theory here but the facts are the facts we win the cup without homegrown talent who gives a crap if they are from our system or not?

 

[awaz]

Pens had a crappy team for years to get all of these guys i hope your not suggesting we play last place hockey to get all of these high draft picks.

i'm not suggesting we tank it, but i am suggesting we hang on to the only high-value draft pick we've had in the past 20 years and give him more than 2.5 years to develop before we start calling him the biggest pussy in the league (btw, matt cooke would like a word, so would sean avery, and i'm sure you know we could go on).. and i dont think the biggest pussy to don a flyer sweater would try to play through an oblique tear, hip impingment, and broken foot.. AT THE SAME TIME.. just sayin.

i would keep going and destroying your theory here but the facts are the facts we win the cup without homegrown talent who gives a crap if they are from our system or not?

unless of course your facts are wrong i suppose.. when was the last time we won a cup?

 

[awaz]

Awaz you can pull up all the stats you want and do crazy comparisons to guys that played before you were even born The facts are still that facts JVR HAS DONE NOTHING IN HIS 5 YEARS SINCE BEING DRAFTED besides be the biggest pussy in the league and the biggest pussy ever to put on a Flyer uniform.There is nothing in his game that he has shown in 5 years that warrants we wait on him to develop because it very well may never happen as he is now damaged goods. He has gotten excused for his first 2 years b/c he went to college, then his second excuse was lets wait and see what happens b/c he played 4 good games out of a whole year and now the latest excuse is he was injured.How long does this go on until he retires??? the guys does not play Flyer hockey plain and simple he needs to go for a defenseman this summer.

so when i bring facts (true facts even!) to the table they are crazy comparisons? mmk.

 

[lasgop8]

so when i bring facts (true facts even!) to the table they are crazy comparisons? mmk.

My facts are about JVR yours are about everyone else thats the difference.

 

[awaz]

My facts are about JVR yours are about everyone else thats the difference.

so because my facts are about people that you can realistically compare jvr to rather than the rare standouts, my facts are irrelevant?

not every 2nd overall pick is able to step on to the ice right away and make a difference.. there have been quite a few lately, but the normal progression of a player is not to step in and dominate the league right away, it takes time.. if you dont think it should take any time for a kid that's used to playing college and high school hockey to dominate the NHL, that's your perrogative.. i gave you a bunch of names that show that's, at the very least, not ALWAYS true

and you keep saying 5 years like that's what we should be judging him off of.. he shouldn't have been in college for 2 years.. but that's what he chose to do.. it hurt his development, that i'll agree w/ you is fact.. but that just means he's going to need those 2 years to develop.. as far as i'm concerned he's spent 2 years developing, not 5.. it blows that there werent NHL-ready players at #2 in 2007, but that's not JvR's fault.. in a decent draft year he probably goes in the late first round