Rookies being a starter

[TCB]

Shark. Another thing you seem to pay close attention to is the Cap. I would easliy defer to you on Cap questions. You believe you can make Rak's numbers work long term despite the big names coming due in the next few years.
This qualifies you as our cap guru imo.

 

[Sharkinva]

Extremely stupid?? Alright, at least you got me to laugh. I admire your tenacity on it. I wish more people would do that. I disagree completely though. Remember the leverage factor. We had none. If the draft were before free agency, one of two things would have happened imo. Rak would have signed at a lower rate(hmmm not as confident about that one), or Rak would be gone, because we would have Murphy before his decision.

Take Murphy out of the equation all together.

Here is the thing. leverage or not. You use the franchise tag in one of two situations.

1. the guy is actually good enough to make that kind of money.
2. You dont have and cant get a replacement for the guy.

Reality is, if rak is average (which is basically what you are saying by pushing the he is not elite mantra) then the reality is, for LESS than $11.5 million I think we could have found another average OLB.

 

[Sharkinva]

Shark. Another thing you seem to pay close attention to is the Cap. I would easliy defer to you on Cap questions. You believe you can make Rak's numbers work long term despite the big names coming due in the next few years.
This qualifies you as our cap guru imo.

Rak Longterm even with the numbers he reportedly wanted is doable AND wouldnt cost us on the back end when it comes to resigning RG#, Kerrigan, Morris and Williams.

This is a break down of clay Matthews deal, the top dog right now as far as OLBs are concerned

2013 1,020,000 4,260,000 930,000 - 500,000 - - 6,710,000 21,590,000
2014 1,000,000 4,100,000 5,343,750 - 500,000 - - 10,943,750 16,400,000
2015 7,600,000 4,100,000 500,000 - 500,000 - - 12,700,000 12,300,000
2016 8,650,000 4,100,000 500,000 - 500,000 - - 13,750,000 8,200,000
2017 10,100,000 4,100,000 500,000 - 500,000 - - 15,200,000 4,100,000
2018 10,400,000 - 500,000 - 500,000 - - 11,400,000


Had we signed Rak to THIS exact deal It would have given us an extra $5 million in cap space this year. Now granted it would have cut our cap space next year by $5 million. But factor in that trent williams is set to count $14 million next year and we will likely extend him and lower that number, its really 2016 cap that we are looking into. Where we are currently set to have $63 million in cap space.

Mind you I dont think we would give him a Matthews deal. But fact is, we could have done a long term deal and not have to sweat the numbers.

 

[TCB]

Take Murphy out of the equation all together.

Here is the thing. leverage or not. You use the franchise tag in one of two situations.

1. the guy is actually good enough to make that kind of money.
2. You dont have and cant get a replacement for the guy.

Reality is, if rak is average (which is basically what you are saying by pushing the he is not elite mantra) then the reality is, for LESS than $11.5 million I think we could have found another average OLB.

Mantra? The word elite is directly involved in the argument, for it directly affects the outcome of the negotiations. Nothing hidden or spiritual about it. Murphy becomes a huge factor in the Rak outcome, unless he flops. I am very confident and exited to see what he can do.

 

[TCB]

Rak Longterm even with the numbers he reportedly wanted is doable AND wouldnt cost us on the back end when it comes to resigning RG#, Kerrigan, Morris and Williams.

This is a break down of clay Matthews deal, the top dog right now as far as OLBs are concerned

2013 1,020,000 4,260,000 930,000 - 500,000 - - 6,710,000 21,590,000
2014 1,000,000 4,100,000 5,343,750 - 500,000 - - 10,943,750 16,400,000
2015 7,600,000 4,100,000 500,000 - 500,000 - - 12,700,000 12,300,000
2016 8,650,000 4,100,000 500,000 - 500,000 - - 13,750,000 8,200,000
2017 10,100,000 4,100,000 500,000 - 500,000 - - 15,200,000 4,100,000
2018 10,400,000 - 500,000 - 500,000 - - 11,400,000


Had we signed Rak to THIS exact deal It would have given us an extra $5 million in cap space this year. Now granted it would have cut our cap space next year by $5 million. But factor in that trent williams is set to count $14 million next year and we will likely extend him and lower that number, its really 2016 cap that we are looking into. Where we are currently set to have $63 million in cap space.

Mind you I dont think we would give him a Matthews deal. But fact is, we could have done a long term deal and not have to sweat the numbers.

Again, I defer to you on the cap, but common sense says when you cross that line with a player who you don't feel is worth it(management felt this way), then what message does this send to the free agents that come due?

 

[Sharkinva]

Mantra? The word elite is directly involved in the argument, for it directly affects the outcome of the negotiations. Nothing hidden or spiritual about it. Murphy becomes a huge factor in the Rak outcome, unless he flops. I am very confident and exited to see what he can do.

I think the world Elite, and what is considered elite is being used to try and lessen the value of the player. You cant make an apples to apples comparison of Rak and what he does with a guy like Matthews and what he does. Fact is they are asked to do different things. Rak is one of the top five ALL Around OLBs in the league. By that i mean he not only rushes the passer, but he plays in pass coverage AND has contain responsibility. Matthews, Ware, Hali... simply put they rush the passer... that is all.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

I think the world Elite, and what is considered elite is being used to try and lessen the value of the player. You cant make an apples to apples comparison of Rak and what he does with a guy like Matthews and what he does. Fact is they are asked to do different things. Rak is one of the top five ALL Around OLBs in the league. By that i mean he not only rushes the passer, but he plays in pass coverage AND has contain responsibility. Matthews, Ware, Hali... simply put they rush the passer... that is all.

 

[TCB]

I think the world Elite, and what is considered elite is being used to try and lessen the value of the player. You cant make an apples to apples comparison of Rak and what he does with a guy like Matthews and what he does. Fact is they are asked to do different things. Rak is one of the top five ALL Around OLBs in the league. By that i mean he not only rushes the passer, but he plays in pass coverage AND has contain responsibility. Matthews, Ware, Hali... simply put they rush the passer... that is all.

That is simply not true. Rak is not the all around player that these guys are. He lacks a diverse rush, and he does not make the plays those guys make. He is not in the elite category. The Redskins management feel the same way about this. Injury concerns are probably involved in their decision making to.

 

[Sharkinva]

That is simply not true. Rak is not the all around player that these guys are. He lacks a diverse rush, and he does not make the plays those guys make. He is not in the elite category. The Redskins management feel the same way about this. Injury concerns are probably involved in their decision making to.

Again I will ask, when are those guys asked to drop into coverage on a RB or Te?? When are those guys asked to play contain on the run on the way to the passer?? They arent. The reason RG3 abused Ware in his rookie year was because Ware's primary goal was to sack the QB, and once RG3 pulled it down and became a runner, Ware became useless. tamba Hali who is considered ELITE had 46 tackles, 11 sacks and one pass defensed and one INT.

Rak who you say is no where near that level had 60 tackles total 10 sacks, 4 passes defensed and one INT.

 

[TCB]

Again I will ask, when are those guys asked to drop into coverage on a RB or Te?? When are those guys asked to play contain on the run on the way to the passer?? They arent. The reason RG3 abused Ware in his rookie year was because Ware's primary goal was to sack the QB, and once RG3 pulled it down and became a runner, Ware became useless. tamba Hali who is considered ELITE had 46 tackles, 11 sacks and one pass defensed and one INT.

Rak who you say is no where near that level had 60 tackles total 10 sacks, 4 passes defensed and one INT.

Don't pay attention to my diverse rush argument? He has one move!
Clay Matthews is a perennial defense player of the year candidate. Rak has never gotten a vote.

 

[Sharkinva]

Don't pay attention to my diverse rush argument? He has one move!
Clay Matthews is a perennial defense player of the year candidate. Rak has never gotten a vote.

I thought it was about production not about style points. the only one move thing again is an attempt to lessen his value and proclaim he is some how wanting. Again with his ONE move, he was just as productive as the Elites even when he wasnt rushing the passer as often as the elites. And really, whats it going to take?? If he hits 15-17 sacks, but still only has one move, will he still not be elite enough??

 

[TCB]

I thought it was about production not about style points. the only one move thing again is an attempt to lessen his value and proclaim he is some how wanting. Again with his ONE move, he was just as productive as the Elites even when he wasnt rushing the passer as often as the elites. And really, whats it going to take?? If he hits 15-17 sacks, but still only has one move, will he still not be elite enough??

Why not 25 sacks with one move? You know why? Because neither 25 nor 17 will happen until he improves. He is not good enough

 

[Sharkinva]

Why not 25 sacks with one move? You know why? Because neither 25 nor 17 will happen until he improves. He is not good enough

Again I ask... if he has MATCHED the production of some of the elites with his one move... why exactly is he not good enough??

 

[TCB]

Again I ask... if he has MATCHED the production of some of the elites with his one move... why exactly is he not good enough??

Why does management agree with me on this? He is not consistent. He doesn't make enough impact plays. He is not diverse in his rush. He is not an impact in the running game enough. He has injury concerns. Sometimes the 10 sack number might have to be looked at more closely. You must look at the overall picture. Management apparently has

 

[Sharkinva]

Why does management agree with me on this? He is not consistent. He doesn't make enough impact plays. He is not diverse in his rush. He is not an impact in the running game enough. He has injury concerns. Sometimes the 10 sack number might have to be looked at more closely. You must look at the overall picture. Management apparently has

Management is paying him $11.5 million this year. Yet he isnt Elite... that makes no sense.

 

[TCB]

Management is paying him $11.5 million this year. Yet he isnt Elite... that makes no sense.

Leverage sir

 

[Sharkinva]

Leverage sir

I call bullshit on that one. If as you say he is a one trick pony and average at best, it was as I have stated extremely stupid to give him the franchise tag. And as a limited one trick pony, he had no leverage. Because as i have stated, they could have found an average OLB for one year for alot less. They gave him the tag because they didnt want to pay him what he wanted, but also had to face the fact that some one else probably would have. the tag was the redskins only way of actually gaining leverage. But why use leverage on a guy who you consider limited unless you feel some one else would have valued him more??

 

[skinsdad62]

TC do you think rak could have gotten 4 more sacks if he had rushed the passer 150 more times ? his peers , at worst rushed 150 more times then he did some rushed even more

a guy makes 3 PBs in 5 years is pretty darn close to being elite even if he "backed in " another BS argument because by backing in he would have been top 5

you dont pay a guy top 5 money without believing he is pretty darn good

the anti rak stance is about people foolishly thinking rob jackson can give the same production or another avg olb for less money will . that is just wishful thinking

and now drafting the 2nd round murphy means what . the 2nd rounder will come right in and start busting our 10 -15 sacks seasons ? we will be lucky if he can produce 6-8

ware and mathews arent asked to do what rak does . to compare them is foolish and is someone looking to justify their stance

the same people will be the 1st to say "take care of our own " but when the chance is provided they say "pass"

 

[Sharkinva]

My question remains, if he only actually rushes the passer roughly 75% as much as the elite guys, and yet he has roughly 75% of the production of the "Elite" pass rushers... how is he not elite. If the production based on number of rushes comparatively matches, that should in fact make him elite.

 

[TCB]

It could be a fun year. If Rak has a career year I will be here for the abuse. If not I hope Murphy shows that he is the man