Report : Raw Staying With NBC Universal, Smackdown will not.

[Ewa PGH Fan]

TNA became Dixie Carter's pet vanity project. That is not the equivalent of Panda Energy going all in on a wrestling company. Sinclair is looking for cheap product for their syndicated TV network. Again not the same thing.

Signing Hogan in 2010 is not the same as signing Hogan and the biggest names in the WWF in 1995.

Devil's advocate, if you and every other poster here is right and there's no interest in starting up a new, major TV centric wrestling company as the rights to air Raw and SD are quadrupled then I throw in the towel and it's a monopoly

So, WCW. And 5 years later they were out of business after being millions in the red for years and were bought by WWE for pennies on the dollar. Yeah, they completed and even briefly beat WWE but in the end that ended up like everyone else. Out of Business and/or bankrupt. Any billionaire looking at the recent history ain't gonna touch wrestling with a ten foot pole.

 

[futballiscool]

Yes you are. That's exactly what you described. You said bring in Paul Heyman (proven booker but out of the booking game for almost 2 decades now), sign indie talent (which by definition has no mainstream name value, and sign WWE talent who's contracts are up (retreads).

Are you trying to change your story now that we've ripped your position to shreds???

We don't agree that you can just wave a magic money wand and create a wrestling promotion out of thin air that will immediately garner the kind of money deals WWE does. Many have already tried and failed and what WWE gets and does isn't any barometer of successes for anybody else in their industry. Unless someone comes up with some new innovative technological advance in the product (WWE is already ahead of this with their own Network and VoD service), it won't change anytime soon, if ever.

Cena or CM Punk or Daniel Bryan or Orton, or Lesnar, or Styles etc. Not WWE retreads. Those are stars. Its completely different.

As far as Heyman being decades out of the booking game I'd be shocked if he's not hands on with Lesnars presentation even if he doesn't have final say.

It's not about waiving a wand and getting a billion dollar TV contract. It's about a new (upwardly trending) market being set and now being the time for someone to invest

 

[futballiscool]

Wrong! So you think TNA and Dixie put (tens or hundreds of) millions in TNA without expecting a return on investment. You know nothing about business.

You're close but it's not quite a monopoly, yet. WWE is moving that way though. Just look at their worldwide Network expansion and their startup of overseas promotions (Britain for one) for proof.

You're basing the full potential of a competitive market place on entirely Panda and Dixie. I won't say you're wrong. I'll respectfully disagree in the validity of the example

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Ratings could drop off if highly marketable wrestlers don't appear on live television. Just keep that in mind.

Would they?

Cena and Lesnar don't appear for weeks/months at a time. Wrestlers get injured and don't appear for months. Yes, there is some short term affects but ratings go up and down anyway and there are a lot of factors besides one or two wrestlers being out or off TV that affect ratings. And yet ratings for the most part stay in a particular range. I believe it's the storylines and angles that draw and keep fans/viewers. I'll bet dollars for donuts that ratings went down during or after that craptaclar Lashley's Sisters angle last night.

TNA tried for years to bump ratings by bringing in the big name former WWE stars. Kurt angle, Booker T and on and on but the ratings bump would be minimal at best and very temporary because their story telling and angles were crap.

 

[Racer8825]

Would they?

Cena and Lesnar don't appear for weeks/months at a time. Wrestlers get injured and don't appear for months. Yes, there is some short term affects but ratings go up and down anyway and there are a lot of factors besides one or two wrestlers being out or off TV that affect ratings. And yet ratings for the most part stay in a particular range. I believe it's the storylines and angles that draw and keep fans/viewers. I'll bet dollars for donuts that ratings went down during or after that craptaclar Lashley's Sisters angle last night.

TNA tried for years to bump ratings by bringing in the big name former WWE stars. Kurt angle, Booker T and on and on but the ratings bump would be minimal at best and very temporary because their story telling and angles were crap.

The Lashley sisters angle was downright dumb IMO. I spent more time looking at my phone during that segment than actually paying attention to what they were saying and doing.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Cena or CM Punk or Daniel Bryan or Orton, or Lesnar, or Styles etc. Not WWE retreads. Those are stars. Its completely different.

As far as Heyman being decades out of the booking game I'd be shocked if he's not hands on with Lesnars presentation even if he doesn't have final say.

It's not about waiving a wand and getting a billion dollar TV contract. It's about a new (upwardly trending) market being set and now being the time for someone to invest

Cm Punk is signed to MMA and not available. Cena has stated he's not wrestling anywhere else. BD was only considering going somewhere else when WWE wouldn't clear him and has said he's now staying in WWE. DB is also the star of one of their reality shows, he ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Orton is out hurt. Lesnar just reupped with WWE. Styles, maybe but I can't see WWE letting him go and he's been there done that with upstart companies, so no dice. Who else ya got? WWE can just throw some money at wrestlers and keep them off the market.

All wrestlers say WWE is their dream job. No one is leaving their dream job for some upstart company that will probably end up in ashes like everyone else unless they're no longer a star and at the bottom of the card. So you can get the Zack Riders of the world, good luck with that.

The market is only trending upward for one company that sits well atop and ahead of that market. Everyone else will just be fighting over scraps.

Oh and by the way, Heyman is just paid talent, he has nothing to do with creative and Lesnar's presentation. He hasn't had anything to do with creative since ECW folded. PWInsider.com has addressed that fact on several occasions. I hope your not too shocked!!!

 

[futballiscool]

Cm Punk is signed to MMA and not available. Cena has stated he's not wrestling anywhere else. BD was only considering going somewhere else when WWE wouldn't clear him and has said he's now staying in WWE. DB is also the star of one of their reality shows, he ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Orton is out hurt. Lesnar just reupped with WWE. Styles, maybe but I can't see WWE letting him go and he's been there done that with upstart companies, so no dice. Who else ya got? WWE can just throw some money at wrestlers and keep them off the market.

All wrestlers say WWE is their dream job. No one is leaving their dream job for some upstart company that will probably end up in ashes like everyone else unless they're no longer a star and at the bottom of the card. So you can get the Zack Riders of the world, good luck with that.

The market is only trending upward for one company that sits well atop and ahead of that market. Everyone else will just be fighting over scraps.

Oh and by the way, Heyman is just paid talent, he has nothing to do with creative and Lesnar's presentation. He hasn't had anything to do with creative since ECW folded. PWInsider.com has addressed that fact on several occasions. I hope your not too shocked!!!

If wrestlers are completely loyal to the WWE as their "dream job" and aren't willing to go to a new higher paying job that can create better work conditions for themselves and their peers then this is worse than a monopoly.

Also I don't go to Pwinsider or any news letter site directly. Feel free to cite an article on Heyman not being involved in Lesnars presentation.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

The Lashley sisters angle was downright dumb IMO. I spent more time looking at my phone during that segment than actually paying attention to what they were saying and doing.

You're lucky. I said somewhere earlier that it was the dumbest angle in the history of Raw and that's saying something. I get what they're trying to do, give Lashley a personality but he is so horrible on the mic, even the taped pre-produced sit down interview was like nails on a chalkboard. He's even worse on the mic then during his first stint in WWE. You'd think he'd improve some while in TNA but nope. This angle is destined for Wrestlecrap and the only way to save it is drop it immediately and forget it ever happened. WWE is good at doing that.

 

[Racer8825]

If wrestlers are completely loyal to the WWE as their "dream job" and aren't willing to go to a new higher paying job that can create better work conditions for themselves and their peers then this is worse than a monopoly.

Also I don't go to Pwinsider or any news letter site directly. Feel free to cite an article on Heyman not being involved in Lesnars presentation.

It happens all the time. Wrestlers feel they aren't making enough money where they're at so they go to a place that will pay them more.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

If wrestlers are completely loyal to the WWE as their "dream job" and aren't willing to go to a new higher paying job that can create better work conditions for themselves and their peers then this is worse than a monopoly.

Also I don't go to Pwinsider or any news letter site directly. Feel free to cite an article on Heyman not being involved in Lesnars presentation.

That explains a lot. PWInsider is not a news letter site. They are a News site. BIG difference. I'm not doing your homework for you.

 

[futballiscool]

That explains a lot. PWInsider is not a news letter site. They are a News site. BIG difference. I'm not doing your homework for you.

Ah.. I'll make sure I call them by the right label.

If they think Heyman is hands off on Lesnar's presentation and all the wrestlers are happy there's only one major company to work for I'll be sure to avoid their site as it sounds full of shit

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

It happens all the time. Wrestlers feel they aren't making enough money where they're at so they go to a place that will pay them more.

Really. Who pays them more??? Every wrestler says they can't make what WWE pays anywhere else at this point. Now, they do get upset with the direction of their character, their TV time, and/or their travel and leave for those reasons. But the time of making more money with one US company died with WCW. I'm not including Japan because I'm not sure what the pay scale is over there, so top guys could make more but you do have top stars for Japanese companies appearing in the US for ROH and signing to WWE (Shinske and Asuke), so who knows.

 

[Racer8825]

Really. Who pays them more??? Every wrestler says they can't make what WWE pays anywhere else at this point. Now, they do get upset with the direction of their character, their TV time, and/or their travel and leave for those reasons. But the time of making more money with one US company died with WCW. I'm not including Japan because I'm not sure what the pay scale is over there, so top guys could make more but you do have top stars for Japanese companies appearing in the US for ROH and signing to WWE (Shinske and Asuke), so who knows.

Alot of guys are perfectly content wrestling in the indies. Not every wrestler wants to go to the big-time and work for WWE.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Ah.. I'll make sure I call them by the right label.

If they think Heyman is hands off on Lesnar's presentation and all the wrestlers are happy there's only one major company to work for I'll be sure to avoid their site as it sounds full of shit

They don't think, they know. They have well cultivated sources in the business. They are a News site. They don't post articles unless they have confirmed the story with at least 2 separate sources, just like news media does or at least used to. Based on your posts today, you're the only one who sounds like they're full of it.

 

[futballiscool]

They don't think, they know. They have well cultivated sources in the business. They are a News site. They don't post articles unless they have confirmed the story with at least 2 separate sources, just like news media does or at least used to. Based on your posts today, you're the only one who sounds like they're full of it.

They sound like a reputable site. When and where did they say Heyman has no involvement in the way Lesnar is presented.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Alot of guys are perfectly content wrestling in the indies. Not every wrestler wants to go to the big-time and work for WWE.

Or make money. Most indie guys have a full time job to make ends meet. The good ones are signed to WWE developmental. If a wrestler doesn't want to make it in the big time, then why are they busting their balls for little money in the first place??? I understand they're a few wrestlers that wrestling is just a hobby and not a job or they just do it cause they love wrestling and performing. those guys aren't really going anywhere anyway cause they don't spend enough time on their craft to improve to WWE developmental level. The Territory days are long dead, no one is making much money wrestling on the indies. I don't believe for one minute that if WWE came calling any indie wrestler (who's never been in the big time before) would turn down the chance to make it big. Ellsworth and Zack Goen ring any bells for anyone.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

They sound like a reputable site. When and where did they say Heyman has no involvement in the way Lesnar is presented.

They've posted articles on it and they have a Q&A section where it's been asked several times. I don't have the time to dig thru their site looking for it right now. I thought the same thing until they said he doesn't. It was a surprise to me too!

 

[Racer8825]

Or make money. Most indie guys have a full time job to make ends meet. The good ones are signed to WWE developmental. If a wrestler doesn't want to make it in the big time, then why are they busting their balls for little money in the first place??? I understand they're a few wrestlers that wrestling is just a hobby and not a job or they just do it cause they love wrestling and performing. those guys aren't really going anywhere anyway cause they don't spend enough time on their craft to improve to WWE developmental level. The Territory days are long dead, no one is making much money wrestling on the indies. I don't believe for one minute that if WWE came calling any indie wrestler (who's never been in the big time before) would turn down the chance to make it big. Ellsworth and Zack Goen ring any bells for anyone.

Zack Gowen was simply a gimmick in of itself. They wanted to show everybody around the world that no matter what your limitations are you can still achieve success in anything you set your mind to.

 

[wildturkey]

Or make money. Most indie guys have a full time job to make ends meet. The good ones are signed to WWE developmental. If a wrestler doesn't want to make it in the big time, then why are they busting their balls for little money in the first place??? I understand they're a few wrestlers that wrestling is just a hobby and not a job or they just do it cause they love wrestling and performing. those guys aren't really going anywhere anyway cause they don't spend enough time on their craft to improve to WWE developmental level. The Territory days are long dead, no one is making much money wrestling on the indies. I don't believe for one minute that if WWE came calling any indie wrestler (who's never been in the big time before) would turn down the chance to make it big. Ellsworth and Zack Goen ring any bells for anyone.

It depends on the indy guy you're talking about. The lower level guys, yes. But guys like Cody, The Bucks, Jay Lethal, etc can make just as much money on the indies if they are good at promoting themselves and selective with their dates than they can with WWE depending on their place on the card. Top WWE guys make top dollar, but the vast vast majority of them are low 6 figures. And that's for like a 350 day schedule. The top guys on the indies can make that same money for half as many days. The Bucks has used this very reason for saying why they are fine if they never decide to make the jump to WWE because they make cash, work less, and have more time with their families. Other guys still make the jump (like Kevin Owens or Adam Cole), but its not just money. They could live comfortably being a top Indy guy. They just want the opportunity to perform on the biggest stage.

So I think @futballiscool has a point when he says if some really rich guy came in he could lure away plenty of the lower card WWE guys and top indy guys and make a rival promotion. It really would be similar to Turner opening up the checkbook to attract talent. But I also think he's being willfully ignorant if he thinks its that easy. Brand does matter. That's why WWE got the contract it did. They earned it through their work over decades, not because networks are desperate for programming and any old wrestling will do. There's a reason no other promotion has popped up since WCW died and it ain't for lacking of trying. It's because its hard and WWE has leveraged out the market. Networks know this. Smart investors know this. They aren't going to give you cash to take on a behemoth like WWE because its a losing proposition. There's a chance it works, but there's a huge chance you fail. That's bad business.

The way another promotion is going to pop up is not to compete with WWE directly, but to out-innovate WWE. Identify what they aren't doing, work the margins, and grow a new market there. That's where the money is. And that's what I was hinting at with my earlier post using All In as an example. Some decision makers and investors using that show as an idea launching pad, coming up with something, and marketing it differently like airing on Netflix, marketing through social media, etc etc.

 

[futballiscool]

So I think @futballiscool has a point when he says if some really rich guy came in he could lure away plenty of the lower card WWE guys and top indy guys and make a rival promotion. It really would be similar to Turner opening up the checkbook to attract talent. But I also think he's being willfully ignorant if he thinks its that easy. Brand does matter. That's why WWE got the contract it did. They earned it through their work over decades, not because networks are desperate for programming and any old wrestling will do. There's a reason no other promotion has popped up since WCW died and it ain't for lacking of trying. It's because its hard and WWE has leveraged out the market. Networks know this. Smart investors know this. They aren't going to give you cash to take on a behemoth like WWE because its a losing proposition. There's a chance it works, but there's a huge chance you fail. That's bad business.
.

At this point I can only repeat what I've said in other posts. Not that it's your fault, the argument has gone on too long and it's difficult to keep up with the whole thing so I'll try to make this as concise as possible. Edit, not concise as possible , as long winded as possible

I'm not saying a "top indy/lower card WWE" talent roster is going to immidatley compete with Raw or SD's ratings. Jay Lethal and Dolph Ziggler as the flagship stars on a prime time ESPN show probably peaks at about a million viewers.

Here's what I think could be game changing:
Build a show around the Elite and then sign Dean Ambrose and Seth Rollins from the WWE. What would be the incentive for Rollins and Ambrose? Eveything I've read online (can't verify accuracy) indicates they make a few million a year. Guarantee them both 5 million a year and give them a larger cut of merchandise royalties. If it's an ESPN wrestling show you market it heavily on the network and perhaps even draw an initial rating from the lapsed fan demographic to go along with everyone interested in wrestling who's not 100 percent loyal to the WWE as the only company they'll ever watch. Rollins/Ambrose would be taking a risk. If the new company folds in a couple years you know they're in Vince's doghouse for eternity. If it succeeds (can't overstate how important this is) wrestlers have a second major option and will get paid their true market value. Maybe that's not a worthwhile risk for Ambrose or Rollins. You would just need a handful of other prominent stars willing to make the jump.

About being "willfully ignorant" on the brand issue. Do I think a new wrestling company could match the WWE in network subscriptions, merchandise sales, house show attendance, WM gate etc. No in certain ways the brand is too far ahead. Hyping a TV show (where the money is) would be very, very easy in the internet era if there's big business behind it. The other aspects of the brand would take time to grow.

Last point (paraphrasing) "nobody's competed with WWE in decades, it's a bad investment".. Here's my point. Forget about the last 15 years because the new TV deal changes the whole landscape. WWE shows are creatively stagnant, ratings are in a valley, fan morale is at low.... And the value of the TV rights is worth 3 and 4 times as much as it was a few years ago. I don't work for Merrill Lynch but between the TV situation and an independently run arena show selling out in a half hour now would seem like the time for someone with a lot of money to challenge them. If it's not, and everyone else is here is right, it's WWE and the glorified indies for good

TLDR; Wrestling content is worth lots of money on TV. Wonder if anyone notices