Randy Johnson...

[soxfan1468927]

Look at the pitching....after Johnson, the pitching on the whole was pretty bad.

I really only look at 1997 because that's the only year that all 4 of those guys were healthy and playing well. The rotation wasn't horrible, Fassero and Moyer weren't bad 2/3 for that year.

But the bullpen was absolutely brutal. And for that, I say thank you. Because if the 1997 Mariners had a decent bullpen, the 2004 Red Sox may not have won the World Series.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I really only look at 1997 because that's the only year that all 4 of those guys were healthy and playing well. The rotation wasn't horrible, Fassero and Moyer weren't bad 2/3 for that year.

But the bullpen was absolutely brutal. And for that, I say thank you. Because if the 1997 Mariners had a decent bullpen, the 2004 Red Sox may not have won the World Series.

Yea the '97 M's bullpen was probably a historically bad one (at least for a playoff team)....the bullpen overall had a 5.47 ERA and 1.63 WHIP.


The '95 rotation outside of Johnson was bad...the starting pitching outside of Johnson had a 37-42 record, 5.59 ERA and 1.70 WHIP (not a typo).

 

[soxfan1468927]

Yea the '97 M's bullpen was probably a historically bad one (at least for a playoff team)....the bullpen overall had a 5.47 ERA and 1.63 WHIP.


The '95 rotation outside of Johnson was bad...the starting pitching outside of Johnson had a 37-42 record, 5.59 ERA and 1.70 WHIP (not a typo).

Well since they added the Wild Card in 1995, only two teams have made the playoffs with an ERA over 5.00. 1997 Mariners (5.47) and 2005 Red Sox (5.17).

 

[DragonfromTO]

Yea the '97 M's bullpen was probably a historically bad one (at least for a playoff team)....the bullpen overall had a 5.47 ERA and 1.63 WHIP.


The '95 rotation outside of Johnson was bad...the starting pitching outside of Johnson had a 37-42 record, 5.59 ERA and 1.70 WHIP (not a typo).

Any input on the Hall of Fame discussion we're having Mr. Darsh? I'd love to get your thoughts on it.

 

[mcnabb7542]

He didn't go in as an M's is for the simple fact they traded him to the Astros. FO wasn't going to pony up a big contract for him and Puss Rod. They were thinking lock up Griff, and ARod...

He was pissed he didn't get to stay and everyone knew Arod wasn't going to stick around, (except the front office)

It actually took him a while to come back up here, every time he pitched here the fans gave him a standing O, that pretty much made him feel he was coming back and doing things for the fans and not the franchise...

 

[StanMarsh51]

He didn't go in as an M's is for the simple fact they traded him to the Astros. FO wasn't going to pony up a big contract for him and Puss Rod. They were thinking lock up Griff, and ARod...

Well, he did have a more dominant and accomplished run as a D'Back (4 Cys, 1 ring and WS MVP, multiple 20 win seasons, 4 seasons of 300+ K's)...we can't ignore that possible part of the equation.

 

[mcnabb7542]

Well, he did have a more dominant and accomplished run as a D'Back (4 Cys, 1 ring and WS MVP, multiple 20 win seasons, 4 seasons of 300+ K's)...we can't ignore that possible part of the equation.

Yep his performance there was outstanding, talk was about him not going in as a M', like I said front office pissed him off and what he accomplished in Arizona made the decision that much easier, IMO...

 

[richig07]

10 years in Seattle, 8 in Arizona... Won a ring and had better numbers in Arizona. I understand it.

Personally, I think of him as a D'Back just as much as I do a Mariner. He's one of those rare guys where he played long enough for two teams, that I envision him in both uniforms.

I would also guess that he may have simply had a better time in Arizona, and a better relationship with the organization.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

Players haven't chosen whose cap goes on their plaque since 2001.

 

[Rock Strongo]

Decided to go in the HOF as a D'Back....why? I think 90% of people consider him a Mariner.

he should go in as an astro.

10-1
.909 winning %
1.28 ERA


in all seriousness, he should go in as a dback. 4 straight cy youngs for shits sake...

 

[Scooby-Doo]

That happen

All I know is in his spot they should have a video looping of him exploding that bird

that happened in zona btw.

Thread closed

 

[obxyankeefan]

Players haven't chosen whose cap goes on their plaque since 2001.

I believe, but could be wrong, the player is still allowed to choose if he spent x amount of years with two different ball clubs. They changed the rule so players (Wade Boggs) could not be paid by a team(Devil Rays) to wear their cap even though they barely spent any time there.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Anither question is how in the hell Seattle didnt win a WS with Randy Johnson,Ken Griffey jr.,A-Rod, and Edgar Martinez.

Don't forget about Jay Buhner, dude was a moose!







I think Johnson should definitely go as a DBack. I think his personal and team successes maxed in AZ.

Hell, Piazza went as a Met and he won ROY in LA along with never missing an ASG or a Sliver Slugger starting the following year (while in LA).

But whatevs. Congrats to the Big Unit!

 

[Tapey]

Because Mariners and baseball dont mix too well

 

[broncosmitty]

Has anyone also done that while winning fewer than 150 games, pitching fewer than 2000 innings and leading the league in walks 3 times? Have you ever read "The Politics of Glory/Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?"? I feel like what I've bolded above is one of the fallacies covered in it.

If Johnson was already challenging for the #1 lefty of all time at the age of 34 then I would think he would have to be way ahead of Grove now given what he did in the back half of his career. Those positions (Waddell being in the convo for #1, RJ's first 10.5 seasons being comparable to Waddell's career, Grove still being #1 now) seem inconsistent to me.

Like I said, if his last 11 years had been his first 11 I'd be OK with letting him in at 34, there's a lot fewer walks and a lot more dominance in that half.

You're right in thinking that Waddell is the best comp to try and make this case but Waddell was more dominant in his run. Johnson had just 4 seasons in the top 10 in ERA as of '98 (3 top 5 and one leading). There's just not enough there at that point. I guess I just think that what Randy's career became is colouring what you thought Randy's career was in the first half.

I haven't read that, no.

I don't view Unit as better than Grove on the whole, nor during his time as a Mariner. I don't view any lefty as better than Grove. Not sure what's inconsistent. And I'm not making a case, I'm stating my opinion. Randy Johnson was a HOFer when he left the Mariners.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I haven't read that, no.

I don't view Unit as better than Grove on the whole, nor during his time as a Mariner. I don't view any lefty as better than Grove. Not sure what's inconsistent. And I'm not making a case, I'm stating my opinion. Randy Johnson was a HOFer when he left the Mariners.

You said that Waddell is in the conversation with Grove for best lefty of all time and you also said that just the first half of Johnson's career compares well with Waddell's entire career. So i don't see how you can believe those two things and not think that Johnson's entire career was better than Grove's.

 

[broncosmitty]

You said that Waddell is in the conversation with Grove for best lefty of all time and you also said that just the first half of Johnson's career compares well with Waddell's entire career. So i don't see how you can believe those two things and not think that Johnson's entire career was better than Grove's.

I said Waddell went 14-15 after age 31. And I believe he's among the best lefties ever.



I love tallinbough Rube, but don't remember comparing his career to Randys in Seattle.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I said Waddell went 14-15 after age 31. And I believe he's among the best lefties ever.



I love tallinbough Rube, but don't remember comparing his career to Randys in Seattle.

I'm confused then. If you weren't offering his short HoF career as a comparison for the first half of Johnson's career what was the point of bringing that up?

 

[broncosmitty]

I'm confused then. If you weren't offering his short HoF career as a comparison for the first half of Johnson's career what was the point of bringing that up?

He went 14-15 after age 31.

And is a HOFer.

 

[gohusk]

HOF's are a joke. Does anybody here really think that Vlad Guererro isn't a HOF'er? I'm an M's fan, I love Ichiro, but would anybody in their right mind take Ichiro over Vlad in their prime? And Ichiro is going to be a first ballot guy.