Randy Johnson...

[Mistaken4193]

Decided to go in the HOF as a D'Back....why? I think 90% of people consider him a Mariner.

 

[navamind]

Because most of his prime came in Arizona and he won a ring there?

He had 53 WAR in 1630.1 innings as a D-Back versus 39.3 WAR in 1838.1 innings in Seattle, not to mention 4 of his Cy Youngs were won from 99-02.

 

[calsnowskier]

In other relevant news...

Damn. Ricky is a good base stealer.

 

[broncosmitty]

Decided to go in the HOF as a D'Back....why? I think 90% of people consider him a Mariner.

This was a big topic of conversation at the time too.


It's stupid he's not a Mariner. He was a HOFer when he left Seattle imo.

 

[bksballer89]

Disappointing. Thought he would go in as a Yankee.

 

[calsnowskier]

Disappointing. Thought he would go in as a Yankee.

He had his 300th win in the French vanilla...

 

[Mistaken4193]

This was a big topic of conversation at the time too.


It's stupid he's not a Mariner. He was a HOFer when he left Seattle imo.

Anither question is how in the hell Seattle didnt win a WS with Randy Johnson,Ken Griffey jr.,A-Rod, and Edgar Martinez.

 

[The Derski]

Fools. His best seasons were in Arizona. Many of his milestones came in Arizona. Nearly all of his hardware was earned in an AZ uniform.

Not to mention this decision was like 2 years ago.

 

[Destroydacre]

Anither question is how in the hell Seattle didnt win a WS with Randy Johnson,Ken Griffey jr.,A-Rod, and Edgar Martinez.

The Mariners are a sorry franchise for sure.

 

[tducey]

Johnson won the World Series with Arizona and had most of his success there.

 

[DragonfromTO]

This was a big topic of conversation at the time too.


It's stupid he's not a Mariner. He was a HOFer when he left Seattle imo.

Have you taken a second look at it? I think you're remembering him as having done more than he had and you'll change your mind on this one. I'm not sure what the best way to argue this case is but I'm also not sure that he's got anything on his resumé at the time he went to Houston that looks Hall of Fame worthy to me. Hell, even Koufax had 400+ more innings, 30+ more wins and 3 more Cy Young Awards than Johnson had at that point. He doesn't have a single HoFer on his top 10 "most similar" at that point. Yes, this is certainly not a super detailed analysis but I kind of think that the broad strokes tell enough of a story here to make the case.

I mean, he left Seattle midway through his 11th season. That means he was just barely even eligible, and if you're going to get into the HoF with that few seasons I think they need to be pretty exceptionally dominant (hell you could even say that they need to look more like his last 11 years did).

 

[broncosmitty]

Have you taken a second look at it? I think you're remembering him as having done more than he had and you'll change your mind on this one. I'm not sure what the best way to argue this case is but I'm also not sure that he's got anything on his resumé at the time he went to Houston that looks Hall of Fame worthy to me. Hell, even Koufax had 400+ more innings, 30+ more wins and 3 more Cy Young Awards than Johnson had at that point. He doesn't have a single HoFer on his top 10 "most similar" at that point. Yes, this is certainly not a super detailed analysis but I kind of think that the broad strokes tell enough of a story here to make the case.

I mean, he left Seattle midway through his 11th season. That means he was just barely even eligible, and if you're going to get into the HoF with that few seasons I think they need to be pretty exceptionally dominant (hell you could even say that they need to look more like his last 11 years did).

Has anyone been Top 3 in CYA four times, led the league in Ks/9 five times, Ks four straight years, been the hardest guy to get a hit off four times had double the W's to L's and not made the HOF?

If he'd died in a plane crash on the way to Houston, he'd have been elected imo.

Sandy Koufax was a first ballot HOFer. Rube Waddell went 14-15 after he was 31, he's a HOF and right with Unit and Koufax among the best lefties ever. (Grove being #1 imo.)

I don't know what his most similar list means, but the names would be interesting. Are they active? Frank Tanana in there? Mickey Lolich? Or is it not just lefties?

 

[fishinabarrel]

All I know is in his spot they should have a video looping of him exploding that bird

 

[soxfan1468927]

Has anyone been Top 3 in CYA four times, led the league in Ks/9 five times, Ks four straight years, been the hardest guy to get a hit off four times had double the W's to L's and not made the HOF?

If he'd died in a plane crash on the way to Houston, he'd have been elected imo.

Sandy Koufax was a first ballot HOFer. Rube Waddell went 14-15 after he was 31, he's a HOF and right with Unit and Koufax among the best lefties ever. (Grove being #1 imo.)

I don't know what his most similar list means, but the names would be interesting. Are they active? Frank Tanana in there? Mickey Lolich? Or is it not just lefties?

I think the best comparison I can find for Johnson with Seattle would be Johan Santana.

Santana finished top 3 in CYA 4 times (won twice to Johnson's 1 win, and had another top 5 finish), led the league in K/9 3 times to Johnson's 5 but led in WHIP 4 times to Johnson's 1. Santana had more innings, a 139-78 record compared to 133-78 for Johnson. Career 50.7 WAR to Johnson's 39.2. Comparison isn't perfect but I think it's as close as you're gonna find.

And I have Santana just missing out on the HOF. He's eligible this coming year so we'll see.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Anither question is how in the hell Seattle didnt win a WS with Randy Johnson,Ken Griffey jr.,A-Rod, and Edgar Martinez.

Because the Mariners only got those 4, healthy, for 1 season. And bats went cold in that series against Baltimore, Johnson had his worst start of the year to open the series, and they were out in 4.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Has anyone been Top 3 in CYA four times, led the league in Ks/9 five times, Ks four straight years, been the hardest guy to get a hit off four times had double the W's to L's and not made the HOF?

If he'd died in a plane crash on the way to Houston, he'd have been elected imo.

Sandy Koufax was a first ballot HOFer. Rube Waddell went 14-15 after he was 31, he's a HOF and right with Unit and Koufax among the best lefties ever. (Grove being #1 imo.)

I don't know what his most similar list means, but the names would be interesting. Are they active? Frank Tanana in there? Mickey Lolich? Or is it not just lefties?

Has anyone also done that while winning fewer than 150 games, pitching fewer than 2000 innings and leading the league in walks 3 times? Have you ever read "The Politics of Glory/Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?"? I feel like what I've bolded above is one of the fallacies covered in it.

If Johnson was already challenging for the #1 lefty of all time at the age of 34 then I would think he would have to be way ahead of Grove now given what he did in the back half of his career. Those positions (Waddell being in the convo for #1, RJ's first 10.5 seasons being comparable to Waddell's career, Grove still being #1 now) seem inconsistent to me.

Like I said, if his last 11 years had been his first 11 I'd be OK with letting him in at 34, there's a lot fewer walks and a lot more dominance in that half.

You're right in thinking that Waddell is the best comp to try and make this case but Waddell was more dominant in his run. Johnson had just 4 seasons in the top 10 in ERA as of '98 (3 top 5 and one leading). There's just not enough there at that point. I guess I just think that what Randy's career became is colouring what you thought Randy's career was in the first half.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think the best comparison I can find for Johnson with Seattle would be Johan Santana.

Santana finished top 3 in CYA 4 times (won twice to Johnson's 1 win, and had another top 5 finish), led the league in K/9 3 times to Johnson's 5 but led in WHIP 4 times to Johnson's 1. Santana had more innings, a 139-78 record compared to 133-78 for Johnson. Career 50.7 WAR to Johnson's 39.2. Comparison isn't perfect but I think it's as close as you're gonna find.

And I have Santana just missing out on the HOF. He's eligible this coming year so we'll see.

That's actually a pretty good comp. I think that Santana was a little more dominant during his run but it's not too bad and probably the best comp there is here, thanks for this. Another factor to consider is that Santana started his career 12 years after Johnson during a time when starting pitchers were starting to "do less" overall, making his numbers relatively more impressive.

 

[soxfan1468927]

That's actually a pretty good comp. I think that Santana was a little more dominant during his run but it's not too bad and probably the best comp there is here, thanks for this. Another factor to consider is that Santana started his career 12 years after Johnson during a time when starting pitchers were starting to "do less" overall, making his numbers relatively more impressive.

I'm curious, would you vote for Santana this year?

 

[DragonfromTO]

I'm curious, would you vote for Santana this year?

I honestly haven't looked at it closely enough to say. My first instinct is that he's just outside. His support will probably rise some over the years as we figure out what the "new" standards are for starters.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Anither question is how in the hell Seattle didnt win a WS with Randy Johnson,Ken Griffey jr.,A-Rod, and Edgar Martinez.

Look at the pitching....after Johnson, the pitching on the whole was pretty bad.