Predict the order of Ron Jaworski's top 5 QB's

[Money]

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of watching every Ravens game since I'm West Coast so I have to somewhat look at #s.

From what I've seen from Flacco on the field + his #s, he's not top 5 in my book. If we're looking at a SINGLE season next year I'd rather have Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Brady or Ryan on my team. I'd also take a healthy Ben R. over Flacco. I don't have the luxury of being able to always watch those guys play either but their #s and from what I have seen of them impresses me more than Flacco.

I don't just look at the #s, but the #s have to be taken into consideration. 1 Super Bowl victory does not mean you're auto top 5. We were ready to put Trent Dilfer top 5 because he won a Super Bowl? Nobody mentioned Flacco in the top 5 before his Super Bowl and despite a great stretch, I personally think Flacco in the top 5 is a stretch.

I can get behind him at #7-8 or so. We're not talking about a great disparity in #s and it's safe to agree that anyone mentioning him in the top 5 has him at #5.

I get all of that and quite frankly don't have a problem with anyone putting Ryan or Ben ahead of Flacco. I've always had Ryan just behind Flacco and until this past year always had Ben ahead of Flacco. It's been too long since Ben had a "healthy" year, so I can no longer not factor that in when ranking him.

I personally feel that if you took Ryan and put him on the Ravens from day 1 (with everything else being the same), his numbers would look the same as Flacco's. Cam Cameron simply has never run a very QB-friendly offense. Just look at Brees' numbers under Cam and then Brees' numbers away from Cam. The only question is...would Ryan have won like Flacco has?

 

[cdumler7]

I get all of that and quite frankly don't have a problem with anyone putting Ryan or Ben ahead of Flacco. I've always had Ryan just behind Flacco and until this past year always had Ben ahead of Flacco. It's been too long since Ben had a "healthy" year, so I can no longer not factor that in when ranking him.

I personally feel that if you took Ryan and put him on the Ravens from day 1 (with everything else being the same), his numbers would look the same as Flacco's. Cam Cameron simply has never run a very QB-friendly offense. Just look at Brees' numbers under Cam and then Brees' numbers away from Cam. The only question is...would Ryan have won like Flacco has?

I don't know how much you can really factor in the whole loss of Cameron thing especially when it comes to Brees. There is more that factors in than just Cameron like the fact that he got one of the greatest offensive minds in the NFL as his new Head Coach in Sean Payton. Also factor in his years with San Diego he had one of the greatest running backs of the last 15 or so years to hand off to. Brees wasn't asked to do as much with the Chargers. He was passing 100-200 times less a season so of course his stats are different.

This year will definitely be a big one for Flacco. Maybe it was Cameron and he will show his true potential. He could continue to do exactly what he did before though as well. Yes he had a great playoff run and that has to be factored in but until he can show that he can do it for a full year it is still a wait see game.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I don't know how much you can really factor in the whole loss of Cameron thing especially when it comes to Brees. There is more that factors in than just Cameron like the fact that he got one of the greatest offensive minds in the NFL as his new Head Coach in Sean Payton. Also factor in his years with San Diego he had one of the greatest running backs of the last 15 or so years to hand off to. Brees wasn't asked to do as much with the Chargers. He was passing 100-200 times less a season so of course his stats are different.

This year will definitely be a big one for Flacco. Maybe it was Cameron and he will show his true potential. He could continue to do exactly what he did before though as well. Yes he had a great playoff run and that has to be factored in but until he can show that he can do it for a full year it is still a wait see game.

Not to mention Flacco is one of the most idiotic plays of all time away from a HUGE payday and even any discussion of him being a top 5 QB. If Moore doesn't have a memory lapse Flacco isn't even in this thread.

 

[Money]

I don't know how much you can really factor in the whole loss of Cameron thing especially when it comes to Brees. There is more that factors in than just Cameron like the fact that he got one of the greatest offensive minds in the NFL as his new Head Coach in Sean Payton. Also factor in his years with San Diego he had one of the greatest running backs of the last 15 or so years to hand off to. Brees wasn't asked to do as much with the Chargers. He was passing 100-200 times less a season so of course his stats are different.

This year will definitely be a big one for Flacco. Maybe it was Cameron and he will show his true potential. He could continue to do exactly what he did before though as well. Yes he had a great playoff run and that has to be factored in but until he can show that he can do it for a full year it is still a wait see game.

I know he was considered a "bright mind", but I'm not sure that Payton had an incredible amount of success before Brees came along. I think they are kind of married to each other when handing out gold stars for performance.

Flacco's improved play actually corresponds more to Cam's firing than to the start of the playoffs. The two events just happen to be close to one another because the Ravens waited too freakin' long to fire Cam. I don't quite understand how people can chalk up Flacco's performance under Caldwell to just be some sort of coinky dink.

 

[cdumler7]

I know he was considered a "bright mind", but I'm not sure that Payton had an incredible amount of success before Brees came along. I think they are kind of married to each other when handing out gold stars for performance.

Flacco's improved play actually corresponds more to Cam's firing than to the start of the playoffs. The two events just happen to be close to one another because the Ravens waited too freakin' long to fire Cam. I don't quite understand how people can chalk up Flacco's performance under Caldwell to just be some sort of coinky dink.

This is a prove it league. One small stretch of games doesn't mean that Flacco has arrived. It could just mean that Caldwell changed things up enough that teams didn't have enough tape to understand his tendencies as an OC. You see this very thing happen with rookies who have a good first year then have a sophomore slump. Can Flacco and Caldwell together repeat what they did in the playoffs. IF so then you are probably looking at the next great OC turned head coach after this next season. Now that teams have had a chance to look at tape from the playoffs can they figure out how to stop Flacco and that offense.

I'm sorry but it is just too much to say that Flacco all of a sudden is at that elite level and deserving of top 5 when for most of his career he has been a middle of the pack quarterback and even if it is somewhat been his OC some of throws and decision making have been suspect at best.

 

[Money]

Well...I'm not sure a QB that has no idea what it's like to ever miss the playoffs or win at least one playoff game each season should be described as "middle of the pack".

 

[cdumler7]

Well...I'm not sure a QB that has no idea what it's like to ever miss the playoffs or win at least one playoff game each season should be described as "middle of the pack".

I understand your reasoning behind being high on Flacco and I do think he has proven himself to be a top 10 quarterback. Before this last off season though he was not even close to being the reason the Ravens were winning. He had a top defense and a strong running game.

His first year in the league he threw 1 touchdown pass in 3 games during the playoffs.
The second year he threw none and had 3 interceptions.
His third year he had one good game then was a major reason why they lost the second.
His fourth year he actually did pretty good.
Obviously we all know what he did last year. He has steadily improved his playoff play I will give him that but I also wouldn't until this past Playoffs say he was ever a big part of why they were winning.

Regular season he has been the very definition of middle of the pack. He has yet to throw for over 4000 yards and has yet to throw for under 10 interceptions in a season.

Again I think Flacco proved himself to be a top 10 quarterback with this past post season but he is going to need to continue to improve to show that he deserves to be in that top 5 discussion. A great 4 game stretch does not prove to anybody that you deserve to be in that discussion of the elite. Yes it was at the perfect time in the playoffs and that should boost it a bit but I think most want to see a little more from Flacco that he can consistently be a reason why the team is winning not just being a game manager.

 

[Money]

I understand your reasoning behind being high on Flacco and I do think he has proven himself to be a top 10 quarterback. Before this last off season though he was not even close to being the reason the Ravens were winning. He had a top defense and a strong running game.

His first year in the league he threw 1 touchdown pass in 3 games during the playoffs.
The second year he threw none and had 3 interceptions.
His third year he had one good game then was a major reason why they lost the second.
His fourth year he actually did pretty good.
Obviously we all know what he did last year. He has steadily improved his playoff play I will give him that but I also wouldn't until this past Playoffs say he was ever a big part of why they were winning.

Regular season he has been the very definition of middle of the pack. He has yet to throw for over 4000 yards and has yet to throw for under 10 interceptions in a season.

Again I think Flacco proved himself to be a top 10 quarterback with this past post season but he is going to need to continue to improve to show that he deserves to be in that top 5 discussion. A great 4 game stretch does not prove to anybody that you deserve to be in that discussion of the elite. Yes it was at the perfect time in the playoffs and that should boost it a bit but I think most want to see a little more from Flacco that he can consistently be a reason why the team is winning not just being a game manager.

I completely understand your points.

I'm coming from a little different place. I've seen the QB that Flacco can/will be for several years now. I've also seen what the dysfunctional relationship between he and Cameron did to his consistency. Cam was fantastic for Joe his rookie and 2nd years in the league (much like Brees). The problem was Cam didn't want to take the training wheels off per say. Cam's offense always centered around an outstanding RB and required a "game manager" at QB.

The Ravens have two outstanding RBs and it would be foolish to ignore that and just let Flacco start chucking the ball downfield. You won't see Flacco's stats explode, but you will see improvement and you will definitely see much more consistency this year.

 

[cdumler7]

I completely understand your points.

I'm coming from a little different place. I've seen the QB that Flacco can/will be for several years now. I've also seen what the dysfunctional relationship between he and Cameron did to his consistency. Cam was fantastic for Joe his rookie and 2nd years in the league (much like Brees). The problem was Cam didn't want to take the training wheels off per say. Cam's offense always centered around an outstanding RB and required a "game manager" at QB.

The Ravens have two outstanding RBs and it would be foolish to ignore that and just let Flacco start chucking the ball downfield. You won't see Flacco's stats explode, but you will see improvement and you will definitely see much more consistency this year.

I can definitely see that happen for sure. For me it boils down in my book to the idea that Flacco is not top 5 in my book but he does have the potential to get there over the next couple of years. The kid has all the skills you would want in a quarterback and the Ravens should be very happy with him and all that he has done so far. Flacco is great for what the Ravens are wanting to do on offense. There are just about 7 or so other quarterbacks that if I had to pick one to lead my team I would pick before Flacco at this point. Now some of those guys are a bigger risk than that of picking Flacco like for me I would pick Roethlisberger over him even though he does have the injury history just because I think Ben offers a little more in play making ability. If Flacco has a great year and Roethlisberger goes down with injury again or has a down year then I would have no problem ranking Flacco ahead of him after this year but I just think Ben has proven more over the course of his career than Flacco up to this point.