Possible coaching changes

[stanford the manford]

Valid points. But if the org does not expect Tom compete in ‘18, wouldn’t it behoove them to let Boch eat that season and protect BamBam from the Fringe?

And maybe BamBam IS directly involved in the search for the remaining coaches.

honestly i believe we’re just treading water. when we start to swim there’s likely to be some miscues. i say we start now and get the miscues behind us asap. it’ll be easier with a transitioning veteran lineup than it will be rebuilding coming of 3+ years of non competitive ball

 

[SFGRTB]

honestly i believe we’re just treading water. when we start to swim there’s likely to be some miscues. i say we start now and get the miscues behind us asap. it’ll be easier with a transitioning veteran lineup than it will be rebuilding coming of 3+ years of non competitive ball

The problem is, it's not at all easy to unload this team. I'd say at this point there is three tradeable players on the 25-man roster, Bum, Posey and Panik.

I've flipped flopped back and forth on this one, but I think you need to expect this team to do everything they can to compete in 2018. Sure, they are probably going to just tread water, and I have 99% certainty Evans and Co. believe this too, but Bear and Johnson are not ready to make that dive yet. So Evans is going to make moves that bolster 2018, and that includes retaining Bochy. (Unless there is such a good deal out there to unload a player that Evans can't possibly say no).

Plus, Boch is going to go out on his terms. He clearly wants to continue managing, and as long as that's there the Giants aren't going to fire him. He has 2 more years on his contract, that's probably the latest he's here though.

Realistically, even if we want them to start now, I think the earliest we can expect any movement like that is July 2018 or next offseason.

 

[stanford the manford]

The problem is, it's not at all easy to unload this team. I'd say at this point there is three tradeable players on the 25-man roster, Bum, Posey and Panik.

I've flipped flopped back and forth on this one, but I think you need to expect this team to do everything they can to compete in 2018. Sure, they are probably going to just tread water, and I have 99% certainty Evans and Co. believe this too, but Bear and Johnson are not ready to make that dive yet. So Evans is going to make moves that bolster 2018, and that includes retaining Bochy. (Unless there is such a good deal out there to unload a player that Evans can't possibly say no).

Plus, Boch is going to go out on his terms. He clearly wants to continue managing, and as long as that's there the Giants aren't going to fire him. He has 2 more years on his contract, that's probably the latest he's here though.

Realistically, even if we want them to start now, I think the earliest we can expect any movement like that is July 2018 or next offseason.

i know you are right, it’s just not my preference. i’ve been involved in and led several turn around (and that is what this is) and the sooner you start, the sooner you finish. bochy isn’t the problem, but he won’t be the solution either.

i’d have no problem with trades of buster, bum, or panik if they could bring players who would be on the upswing of their careers in 19. i’d think craw would be tradable as well. eating contracts should be on the table. if the fo is going to finess this thing, we’ll be looking at the heels of the dodgers, dbacks, rockies for a while

 

[LHG]

The org will never fire him. And if he didn’t want to actually be the manager anymore, he would be “reassigned” so he wouldn’t be leaving any money on the table. So that means he is still around based on his desire to be here.

That said, I agree with you. Why does he still want the job, given his health issues and the current state of the franchise? Maybe he just wants to stick around to assist Bam Bam in setting up the next core.

Bochy is a proud man. Why would he want to go out with a 98 loss season? I left the Padres with a winning season. He probably wants to do the same here. He believes, at least he does on the record, that the team can be competitive next year and wants to right the ship, as it were.

As for a heir-apparent, wasn't Steve Decker supposed to be the guy just a few years ago? Whatever happened to that? Considering that the golden boy changes every few years, I wouldn't wager that either Bell or Meulens are sitting in that seat in 2020. In fact, if the team looks mediocre at best for the next two seasons, I do think the ownership would consider a clean sweep from the top down.

 

[calsnowskier]

Assuming the ?Giants are again not a competitive team in ‘18, I would actually be shocked if Bum is NOT traded in July. Maybe Panik as well. I just don’t see Posey getting traded, though, for a number of reasons.

1) If he remains a catcher, he can help develop both the pitchers AND hitters as the come up.

2) The org will still need a face for the franchise.

3) If he moves to 1B, his trade value would be almost null. His contract would overshadow his value, so the ?Giants would need to eat a decent portion, reducing the incentive to move him.

 

[stanford the manford]

Assuming the ?Giants are again not a competitive team in ‘18, I would actually be shocked if Bum is NOT traded in July. Maybe Panik as well. I just don’t see Posey getting traded, though, for a number of reasons.

1) If he remains a catcher, he can help develop both the pitchers AND hitters as the come up.

2) The org will still need a face for the franchise.

3) If he moves to 1B, his trade value would be almost null. His contract would overshadow his value, so the ?Giants would need to eat a decent portion, reducing the incentive to move him.

belt has 1st nailed down for the rest of my natural life, so buster isn't going to be the everyday 1st baseman

why isn't craw in the trade discussion? is it a contract issue or little perceived value?

 

[calsnowskier]

belt has 1st nailed down for the rest of my natural life, so buster isn't going to be the everyday 1st baseman

why isn't craw in the trade discussion? is it a contract issue or little perceived value?

Personally, I think he holds more value to the Giants than he would to any other team. He is a middling offense, defensive wizard SS. But that photo of him as a kid from ‘93 is priceless, and has, IMHO, endeared him to the fan base.

 

[stanford the manford]

Personally, I think he holds more value to the Giants than he would to any other team. He is a middling offense, defensive wizard SS. But that photo of him as a kid from ‘93 is priceless, and has, IMHO, endeared him to the fan base.

i'd hate to see him go... and if he stays in shape, he should be able to contribute into the early 2000s...

 

[calsnowskier]

i'd hate to see him go... and if he stays in shape, he should be able to contribute into the early 2000s...

So you think he should last until 15 years ago?

 

[LHG]

i'd hate to see him go... and if he stays in shape, he should be able to contribute into the early 2000s...

I assume you meant 2020s.

 

[stanford the manford]

I assume you meant 2020s.

damn iphone with its minuscule keyboard

 

[calsnowskier]

Yankees job just came available. Bam Bam just seems like too perfect a fit for that job...

 

[Stokes1931]

Yankees job just came available. Bam Bam just seems like too perfect a fit for that job...

 

[SFGRTB]

Assuming the ?Giants are again not a competitive team in ‘18, I would actually be shocked if Bum is NOT traded in July. Maybe Panik as well. I just don’t see Posey getting traded, though, for a number of reasons.

1) If he remains a catcher, he can help develop both the pitchers AND hitters as the come up.

2) The org will still need a face for the franchise.

3) If he moves to 1B, his trade value would be almost null. His contract would overshadow his value, so the ?Giants would need to eat a decent portion, reducing the incentive to move him.

I think it's pretty clear that Evans is putting the team in a position to face a major rebuild if this experiment doesn't work out. There hasn't been a single roster move and it's obvious he's gearing up for the future just with shifting the coaching staff.

So that includes Bum, who's value will only plummet after next years deadline (and the arrow is currently pointing down, but not drastically).

 

[LHG]

Yankees job just came available. Bam Bam just seems like too perfect a fit for that job...

Wow, that is 3 teams who made the playoffs and decided to let their manager go. Tough crowd. When will Arizona, Colorado, Chicago, Cleveland, Minnesota and either Los Angeles or Houston let their managers go?
I still think that MLB should just institute a rule that all teams who don't make the World Series automatically release their managers at the end of the year and pick a new one for the next season. It seems to be going that direction anyway.

 

[calsnowskier]

Wow, that is 3 teams who made the playoffs and decided to let their manager go. Tough crowd. When will Arizona, Colorado, Chicago, Cleveland, Minnesota and either Los Angeles or Houston let their managers go?
I still think that MLB should just institute a rule that all teams who don't make the World Series automatically release their managers at the end of the year and pick a new one for the next season. It seems to be going that direction anyway.

We saw just a few years ago with Harbs that the right chemistry is arguably more important that blindly looking at on-field performance.

Also, I am a believer in that in baseball there are only maybe 5 managers who actually make a positive difference on a team. The othe 25 either make no noticeable difference or such a minor difference it isn’t worth mentioning. Therefore, if you don’t have one of the 5 or so difference makers, you might as well roll the dice again. IMHO, in the last 10 years or so, Bochy, Madden, Francona, Roberts and Showalter are probably the only real difference makers.

 

[LHG]

We saw just a few years ago with Harbs that the right chemistry is arguably more important that blindly looking at on-field performance.

Also, I am a believer in that in baseball there are only maybe 5 managers who actually make a positive difference on a team. The othe 25 either make no noticeable difference or such a minor difference it isn’t worth mentioning. Therefore, if you don’t have one of the 5 or so difference makers, you might as well roll the dice again. IMHO, in the last 10 years or so, Bochy, Madden, Francona, Roberts and Showalter are probably the only real difference makers.

Using that statement, I would argue the other way around. What are the chances that the next guy is going to be better? I would think the percentage would be pretty low. And even at that, the difference makers is very subjective. Showalter wasn't seen as one in New York or Arizona, he was the cast off. Diddo Francona. At one time, Girardi would have been seen as a difference maker (i.e. the 2009 Yankees. Heck, getting this year's team one game from the WS after people thought they were another year or two away from contention).

I think these moves have more to do with ego than personality. There's a bunch of guys, from the front office to the playing field, that are filled with an inflated view of self and are not willing to deal with someone whom they don't like. When this causes friction between the GM and the manager, the GM looks for any chance to get rid of the manager. Some times, those reasons are pretty flimsy.

So what happens if none of these three teams (Yankees, Red Sox, Nationals) make the playoffs next year. Whose fault is that? I know, the answer can be complicated. But if the same core group of players return and stay relatively healthy, but don't produce the same, is that the new managers' faults? Is it the previous managers' faults?

 

[calsnowskier]

My point is that if the FO determines that the existing manager is not or will not be an elite guy, than they might as well move on. They certainly won’t do worse (basically - see Williams, Matt), but they might hit with the right guy.

And of course it is subjective. A guy may be a bum in one location (Belichick in Cleveland) and a genius in the next. Maybe the guy needs to fall on his face in order to truely learn that a certain aspect of his game needs adjusting. Maybe it is just a personality issue with the FO. Just because a guy fails with team A does not mean he will fail with team B (and vice versa).

But rarely will a guy not be right, then all of the sudden be the second coming. If the team identifies a guy as not being “the guy”, they might as well move on.

 

[calsnowskier]

BamBam officially to the bench.
Wotus officially to 3rd.
Nevin officially fired.

Matt Herges hired as BP coach.

 

[SFGRTB]

BamBam officially to the bench.
Wotus officially to 3rd.
Nevin officially fired.

Matt Herges hired as BP coach.

Matt Herges Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Herges is a Dodgers guy, been with their organization since 2011. Stuck with the new ownership turnover, which is always a good sign.

He spent the last two seasons as the pitching coach in AAA.

He has great respect as a person, from what I've seen. He also bring analytical background, or at least an understanding of it and willingness to buy into it.

Sounds like the Dodgers were looking at him as a future pitching coach on their ML staff.

I'd give this a thumbs up. One thing is odd though. You would think a pitching coach would be hired first so they could have input on the bullpen coach. Maybe the Giants already have someone and have yet to announce it, maybe because they're currently in the World Series?

Either that, or Herges was too good to pass up.