Pittsburgh Pirates ownership

[HonusWagner66]

Haha they need to invent some type of more advanced quoting system. This thread is a mess. Bolding, underlining, italics. Jesus...

 

[HonusWagner66]

No idea why you keep saying they've won 50% of the trades either.

Of the 9 trades I've commented on...

Bay - loss. Not epic though.
Bautista - loss. No blame on talent evaluation though. He sucked.
Paulino - draw. Certainly not a win but nothing important.
McLouth - win. Easily.
LaRoche - draw.
Wilson - win. Most blatant win..
Sanchez - win. Could drop down to a draw if Alderson doesn't work out. Certainly worth the trade though.
Grabow/Gorzo - Draw, maybe a slight loss. Certainly nowhere near an epic loss at all.
Iwamura - loss or maybe a draw. Well worth the risk though.

 

[evolver115]

No idea why you keep saying they've won 50% of the trades either.

I said they've won about 20% of their trades. You seem to think they've somehow won half of these trades, illustrated by what you said below. Nady/Marte would be the only real win. The others are somewhere between a split, to absolutely nothing.
Of the 9 trades I've commented on...

Bay - loss. Not epic though.

It's epic. Bay was the marque figure of the franchise, and he returned absolutely nothing. Don't kid yourself.

Bautista - loss. No blame on talent evaluation though. He sucked.
Sure it is. They got absolutely nothing for him. That's poor talent evaluation. Bautista was/is a serviceable ball player, and he returned 0.

Paulino - draw. Certainly not a win but nothing important.
This isn't a draw. Paulino is still in the MLB. His return is AAA, and has shown no promise. that's called a loss.

McLouth - win. Easily.
Again, Nate had high value when he was traded, and his return has shown nothing. It can be viewed as a draw at best because Nate has struggled.

LaRoche - draw.
This is another loss. Laroche is still in the MLB, and productive. His return hasn't shown much of anything.

Wilson - win. Most blatant win..
Clement can't hit major league pitching, and cedeno is below average. At best this is a draw. Garbage in, garbage out

Sanchez - win. Could drop down to a draw if Alderson doesn't work out. Certainly worth the trade though.
HAHA!!! Sanchez is starting in the MLB. Alderson was demoted to A ball!! Do you see the disconnect here? MLB > A ball. He is garbage, and the return for Sanchez was 0.

Grabow/Gorzo - Draw, maybe a slight loss. Certainly nowhere near an epic loss at all.
I won't argue it being a loss. It's certainly not a draw.

Iwamura - loss or maybe a draw. Well worth the risk though.
$4.0 million for the smallest payroll in baseball isn't something to be taken lightly. This was their largest investment in FA, and it failed miserably. Just one more example of how pathetic this organization is at evaluating major and minor league talent. This investment crashed and burned. I could have seen that 4.0 spent more wisely on a proven ballplayer like Guerrero, who is now making similar money in texas. Instead, it was spent on an injured second baseman who is now in AAA, and he's been there for months.

 

[HonusWagner66]

I said they've won about 20% of their trades. You seem to think they've somehow won half of these trades, illustrated by what you said below. Nady/Marte would be the only real win. The others are somewhere between a split, to absolutely nothing.
Of the 9 trades I've commented on...

Sorry I meant to say no idea why you think I think they've won have the trades. And no I don't. I didn't say they've won half the trades you think I am. They just aren't epic losses like you say.



It's epic. Bay was the marque figure of the franchise, and he returned absolutely nothing. Don't kid yourself.

Sorry. I just disagree. Everyone knew the Pirates were gonna trade him so no one was offering what he was worth. They got a little potential that got his with injuries. Certainly a loss, but not Aramis Ramirez territory.

Sure it is. They got absolutely nothing for him. That's poor talent evaluation. Bautista was/is a serviceable ball player, and he returned 0.

Bautista was barely a serviceable ball player when they dealt him. He was terrible. Yeah he turned it around out of the blue. Trade is a loss, but I'm not gonna hold a grudge on a GM that made the move. He was no good when they traded him, and showed little potential to be much better.

This isn't a draw. Paulino is still in the MLB. His return is AAA, and has shown no promise. that's called a loss.

They both suck. Paulino was terrible in Pittsburgh. He's barely serviceable when placed around a good roster. 4 HR and a .259 average this season. That's basically the exact same #s Jaramillo put up last year. The Marlins don't have anyone else is the only reason he's starting. And Jaramillo has no promise? He's batting over .300 in AAA. Not a loss. Draw.


Again, Nate had high value when he was traded, and his return has shown nothing. It can be viewed as a draw at best because Nate has struggled.

The value of a guy with 1 decent year in the Majors that was at the time of the trade batting in the .250s is not that high. Sorry. Regardless of how well he looks compared to the rest of the Pirates roster. McLouth didn't have anywhere near as high a value as many Pirate fans think for some reason. He sucks now. The Pirates knew to sell high. They did. Good move. Good trade. Certainly not a loss.

This is another loss. Laroche is still in the MLB, and productive. His return hasn't shown much of anything.

And had the Pirates not traded him, he would still be on another team in the MLB and his return would've been nothing. Diaz is good organization depth for a system lacking in middle infielders. Strickland still is young with potential. At worst another depth guy. Can't expect much more out of a half-year average first baseman. Cutting his salary alone was worth the trade. It's not like he was gonna turn them around into a champion in that half season.

And he certainly wasn't gonna return. Both sides hit a contract impasse. Everyone knew he was gone after the season.

Clement can't hit major league pitching, and cedeno is below average. At best this is a draw. Garbage in, garbage out

Once again... Cedeno > Wilson. Clement + prospects >>>> a guy who wouldn't pitch for the Pirates. Win. Especially since Wilson wasn't going to stay with the Pirates after the season.

HAHA!!! Sanchez is starting in the MLB. Alderson was demoted to A ball!! Do you see the disconnect here? MLB > A ball. He is garbage, and the return for Sanchez was 0.

You REALLY don't understand the whole prospects thing in MLB do you? You're argument is 35 (?) year old Sanchez is in the Majors and 21 year old pitcher is in the minors, so it's a loss. LOL. Okay. Alderson has potential. Was rated in BA's top 50 prospects at one point.

Granted he's dropped in stock but he's still better than an average 2nd baseman who wasn't going to stay with the Pirates after the season.

I won't argue it being a loss. It's certainly not a draw.
Won't argue it being a loss. It's certainly not a loss. That was easy.

$4.0 million for the smallest payroll in baseball isn't something to be taken lightly. This was their largest investment in FA, and it failed miserably. Just one more example of how pathetic this organization is at evaluating major and minor league talent. This investment crashed and burned. I could have seen that 4.0 spent more wisely on a proven ballplayer like Guerrero, who is now making similar money in texas. Instead, it was spent on an injured second baseman who is now in AAA, and he's been there for months.

The $4.0 is to be taken lightly. They needed to up their payroll. They've given out more money for worse players before. They took a chance that a guy would come back from injury. That's not unheard of. It didn't work. They didn't lose anything other than an average reliever who've they replaced.

And like Guerrero would ever sign with the Pirates when he can make as much or more money with a contender? Oh and Guerrero's deal is gonna be worth over $6 million after the season.

 

[evolver115]

I said they've won about 20% of their trades. You seem to think they've somehow won half of these trades, illustrated by what you said below. Nady/Marte would be the only real win. The others are somewhere between a split, to absolutely nothing.
Of the 9 trades I've commented on...

Sorry I meant to say no idea why you think I think they've won have the trades. And no I don't. I didn't say they've won half the trades you think I am. They just aren't epic losses like you say.



It's epic. Bay was the marque figure of the franchise, and he returned absolutely nothing. Don't kid yourself.

Sorry. I just disagree. Everyone knew the Pirates were gonna trade him so no one was offering what he was worth. They got a little potential that got his with injuries. Certainly a loss, but not Aramis Ramirez territory.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Lot's of good to great ballplayers on their last year of a contract are traded for quality prospects and/or mlb talent in return. When you ship out your best player, as a GM, you better make damn sure that what you receive in return is as close to a can't miss as possible. Trading Bay, who was the most talented position player the bucs had, should have returned quality. This one piece should have garnered quality in return. It hasn't, and that's why it's an epic failure.

Sure it is. They got absolutely nothing for him. That's poor talent evaluation. Bautista was/is a serviceable ball player, and he returned 0.

Bautista was barely a serviceable ball player when they dealt him. He was terrible. Yeah he turned it around out of the blue. Trade is a loss, but I'm not gonna hold a grudge on a GM that made the move. He was no good when they traded him, and showed little potential to be much better.


But, he was serviceable. Never got demoted, and he turned his career around. The Pirates lost this trade by a wide margin.

This isn't a draw. Paulino is still in the MLB. His return is AAA, and has shown no promise. that's called a loss.

They both suck. Paulino was terrible in Pittsburgh. He's barely serviceable when placed around a good roster. 4 HR and a .259 average this season. That's basically the exact same #s Jaramillo put up last year. The Marlins don't have anyone else is the only reason he's starting. And Jaramillo has no promise? He's batting over .300 in AAA. Not a loss. Draw.

But that's just half of a catcher's worth. Jaramillo also sucks on defense. Where Paulino has excelled. Hence, he has higher value. When you are throwing out 30% of potential base stealers, that gives him higher value. The Pirates lost this trade.

Again, Nate had high value when he was traded, and his return has shown nothing. It can be viewed as a draw at best because Nate has struggled.

The value of a guy with 1 decent year in the Majors that was at the time of the trade batting in the .250s is not that high. Sorry. Regardless of how well he looks compared to the rest of the Pirates roster. McLouth didn't have anywhere near as high a value as many Pirate fans think for some reason. He sucks now. The Pirates knew to sell high. They did. Good move. Good trade. Certainly not a loss.

They knew to sell high, but his return brought nothing of any value. The trade failed. A good GM would recognize the opportunity, and take advantage of it. Yea, nate sucks now, but when he was dealt, his potential was still very high. They should have sought better value for him. It's not a good move if the sell high player doesn't net you quality in return. It's a draw at best.

This is another loss. Laroche is still in the MLB, and productive. His return hasn't shown much of anything.

And had the Pirates not traded him, he would still be on another team in the MLB and his return would've been nothing. Diaz is good organization depth for a system lacking in middle infielders. Strickland still is young with potential. At worst another depth guy. Can't expect much more out of a half-year average first baseman. Cutting his salary alone was worth the trade. It's not like he was gonna turn them around into a champion in that half season.

And he certainly wasn't gonna return. Both sides hit a contract impasse. Everyone knew he was gone after the season.

Another similar situation as they had with Bay. Laroche is by no means in the same tier as Bay, but you know what you are going to get with LaRoche. He's going to hit 90+RBI's, and average somewhere around .270 for the year. His return should have garnered more than just organizational depth. They need quality depth, not just a body.

Clement can't hit major league pitching, and cedeno is below average. At best this is a draw. Garbage in, garbage out

Once again... Cedeno > Wilson. Clement + prospects >>>> a guy who wouldn't pitch for the Pirates. Win. Especially since Wilson wasn't going to stay with the Pirates after the season.

It's a draw. More organizational depth that will lead to nowhere. It's quality that they should look for. Not All-star quality, but average quality. They didn't get it. Cedeno isn't an improvement over Jack, and Clement can't hit MLB pitching. He's a career AAA ball-player, and that's all he will ever be.

HAHA!!! Sanchez is starting in the MLB. Alderson was demoted to A ball!! Do you see the disconnect here? MLB > A ball. He is garbage, and the return for Sanchez was 0.

You REALLY don't understand the whole prospects thing in MLB do you? Your rgument is 35 (?) year old Sanchez is in the Majors and 21 year old pitcher is in the minors, so it's a loss. LOL. Okay. Alderson has potential. Was rated in BA's top 50 prospects at one point.

I think it's you who doesn't understand the whole prospects thing. When you deal a former all-star and batting champion, his return had better net the organization quality in return. Whether that's in the form of a prospect, or a young talent. Alderson is not a quality return. He may appear that way on paper, but while he's been in the bucs minor league system, he's regressed. In fact, he regressed even before he left SF's minor league system. This is what I'm talking about when I say the pirates need to evaluate minor league prospects, better. They are horrible at it. Nothing has changed from the old regime. They couldn't do it well then, and they can't do it well, now.

Granted he's dropped in stock but he's still better than an average 2nd baseman who wasn't going to stay with the Pirates after the season.

I won't argue it being a loss. It's certainly not a draw.
Won't argue it being a loss. It's certainly not a loss. That was easy.


Clever, but it skirts the issue. It is a loss. That's why I said I wouldn't argue it not being one. It's not a draw.

$4.0 million for the smallest payroll in baseball isn't something to be taken lightly. This was their largest investment in FA, and it failed miserably. Just one more example of how pathetic this organization is at evaluating major and minor league talent. This investment crashed and burned. I could have seen that 4.0 spent more wisely on a proven ballplayer like Guerrero, who is now making similar money in texas. Instead, it was spent on an injured second baseman who is now in AAA, and he's been there for months.

The $4.0 is to be taken lightly. They needed to up their payroll. They've given out more money for worse players before. They took a chance that a guy would come back from injury. That's not unheard of. It didn't work. They didn't lose anything other than an average reliever who've they replaced.

That's a rediculous statement to make. The pirates have the lowest payroll in baseball! Ifyou throw money at a FA player, you better make damn sure you're going to succeed with the signing in some form or fashion. I agree, they need to raise their payroll, but not at the expense of a very questionable addition. Make every dollar count. That's the way they need to approach FA. They don't have unlimited resources to just throw money at the wall and hope it sticks. They aren't the yankees, sox, cubs, mets... teams that can afford that approach. This was an epic failure on their part.
And like Guerrero would ever sign with the Pirates when he can make as much or more money with a contender? Oh and Guerrero's deal is gonna be worth over $6 million after the season.

Guerrero is an example of a player who you throw money at, though. You know what he's capable of providing. You throw enough money at a FA ballplayer, offering him a one year deal,and he's going to take it. They've done it before with other FA types. Spend what little money they have aggresively and wisely. Don't throw it at a ballplayer with question marks all over him... i.e. Aki Iwamura.