Tournament Thread Pac 12 Tournament

[CatsTopPac]

Yeah, and if you can't beat a team with a healthy Trier for 40 minutes, no guarantee, you win had he not gotten injured. I'm not trying to say anything. Trier is a very good player, but based on how they played with and without him, honestly, there wasn't much difference. They lost close games with him and close games without him. They blew out bad teams with him and blew out bad teams without him. And, if not for York saving Arizona against Cal, they don't win that game either. I'm just saying Trier has been far to inconsistent to really claim anything.

And that's a valid argument. Stick to that instead of trying to tell me that the USC game doesn't count as him being injured when he was definitely injured, and that they had a higher rating without him, when BPI doesn't recognize it as an injured game unless he plays zero minutes.

Now, I can see your argument, but I think that at worst, they lost after 4OTs, by two, playing with the injury. I have to believe that although inconsistent, there is a solid argument that he would have even made one of those FTs (because he's not inconsistent at that), and would have won.

I'm definitely less likely to say that AZ would have beaten Oregon with him, but it definitely matters that they didn't get the opportunity. My point to DHoey, is that we can't just say that it's so obviously clear that Oregon is the best team in the Pac, when most of AZ's losses in the Pac were affected by significant injuries, and the margin of victory was a basket or less. That's it man.

 

[DHoey]

Answer me this: when does it make any sense that a team would be better without a 15ppg shooter when they lost a game in 4OT, and another by 1? Because a measurement doesn't count a game as him being injured because he didn't miss the entire game?

I understand that they went to OT with him healthy. I'm saying that his only missed FTs of the game for an 80% shooter were in the OTs while shooting with a broken hand. That matters, specifically.

I never said that if Trier was healthy that AZ would have won the Pac, so according to you, you should be taking no issue with my posts. I'm saying that if you don't think there is at least an argument for it considering the losses while he was injured, then you are not even trying to look at it objectively.

Of course you can make an arguement for it, you can argue about whatever you want. The bottom line is Arizona under achieved this year, they are 3-6 against the RPI top 50, got beat by Oregon at home, and finished 4th in the conference.

 

[CatsTopPac]

For an example; Indiana has been MUCH better without their 16 ppg scorer(2nd on the team).

That's fair. I shouldn't have been so absolute. Now, how often is that the case?

 

[CatsTopPac]

Of course you can make an arguement for it, you can argue about whatever you want. The bottom line is Arizona under achieved this year, they are 3-6 against the RPI top 50, got beat by Oregon at home, and finished 4th in the conference.

They underachieved? They lost 4 starters from last year, lost their second best freshman right before the season started, had two of their starters injured for at least a month, tied for 3rd in the conference, and only lost once at home. They won 24 games in a rebuilding year, and many actually didn't pick them to win the conference. Hell, I picked them to go 12-6 in the Pac this year way back in December.

A critique of underachieving is also hilarious coming from a UW fan.

 

[DHoey]

They underachieved? They lost 4 starters from last year, lost their second best freshman right before the season started, had two of their starters injured for at least a month, tied for 3rd in the conference, and only lost once at home. They won 24 games in a rebuilding year, and many actually didn't pick them to win the conference. Hell, I picked them to go 12-6 in the Pac this year way back in December.

A critique of underachieving is also hilarious coming from a UW fan.

I'm pretty sure that everyone picked Arizona to win the conference, they finished 4th. Maybe you guys lowered your standards down there???

Teams like Arizona aren't supposed to rebuild, they're supposed to reload. The season isn't over so maybe they will meld together. Maybe York taking over over against Cal will be their momentum push. Time will tell.

 

[ericd7633]

And that's a valid argument. Stick to that instead of trying to tell me that the USC game doesn't count as him being injured when he was definitely injured, and that they had a higher rating without him, when BPI doesn't recognize it as an injured game unless he plays zero minutes.

Now, I can see your argument, but I think that at worst, they lost after 4OTs, by two, playing with the injury. I have to believe that although inconsistent, there is a solid argument that he would have even made one of those FTs (because he's not inconsistent at that), and would have won.

I'm definitely less likely to say that AZ would have beaten Oregon with him, but it definitely matters that they didn't get the opportunity. My point to DHoey, is that we can't just say that it's so obviously clear that Oregon is the best team in the Pac, when most of AZ's losses in the Pac were affected by significant injuries, and the margin of victory was a basket or less. That's it man.

All I'm saying is that he was injured in OT of that game. Obviously if a game goes to OT, the teams are fairly evenly matched for the game. It stinks he got injured, Arizona could have won or lost that game. All I'm saying is they played 2/3 of the game with him healthy and their was no evidence to suggest they were better than or worse than USC with him/without him. Its another one of those cases where I think Arizona is pretty similar with or without him.

 

[ericd7633]

That's fair. I shouldn't have been so absolute. Now, how often is that the case?

Teams with good depth and upperclassman aren't effected as much by a loss like that. I can't remember but I'm assuming Arizona started Allen, York, Tollefson, Anderson and Zeus for the games Trier missed. That's 3 seniors, a RS senior and a RS junior.

As far as other teams losing a scorer like that this season? I can't really think of anyone else. Valentine missed some games for MSU, but he's much more important in terms of playmaking and rebounding than Trier is. I'd honestly have to think about it.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Teams with good depth and upperclassman aren't effected as much by a loss like that. I can't remember but I'm assuming Arizona started Allen, York, Tollefson, Anderson and Zeus for the games Trier missed. That's 3 seniors, a RS senior and a RS junior.

As far as other teams losing a scorer like that this season? I can't really think of anyone else. Valentine missed some games for MSU, but he's much more important in terms of playmaking and rebounding than Trier is. I'd honestly have to think about it.

Allen is a JC transfer and this is his first year in an AZ uniform, he also got sick this season and lost 17lbs. Tolly and Anderson are both seniors transfers who have never worn an AZ uniform before. And Zeus had just come back from missing a month with his own injury the game before Trier got hurt.

So yes, also given the fact that Trier was playing SF this year to cover for Smith who was supposed to be the SF who was injured right before the season, losing him was a big deal. Hell, the only other guy who could even play SF is Pitts, and he has some unknown issue and hasn't played in months. Our starting SF was 6'9" first year Tolly.

 

[JonBlaze]

Since the tournament is not being held in Colorado, CU has zero chance. They are absolute pussies on the road and can't finish any games outside of Boulder. Even then, the home court allows them to barely hold on to wins. I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose to Wazzu. They should have lost to them at home a little while back. </bitterfan mode>

 

[trojanfan12]

Yeah, and if you can't beat a team with a healthy Trier for 40 minutes, no guarantee, you win had he not gotten injured.

If Trier doesn't get hurt, maybe USC still wins, but you'd have to like Zona's chances a lot better if he didn't.

 

[LASports96]

meh don't want to hear that BS

 

[johnson]

They didn't win in regulation either...my point is claiming either isn't right, but they did play over half the game with him healthy as opposed to injured...

What about Ray Smith? AZ has had some legit injury issues this year.

PAC12 gets nastier every year though. I wouldn't call fans of about six different teams crazy if they thought they could win this tournament. Going to be a wild ride.

 

[CatsTopPac]

What about Ray Smith? AZ has had some legit injury issues this year.

PAC12 gets nastier every year though. I wouldn't call fans of about six different teams crazy if they thought they could win this tournament. Going to be a wild ride.

No man, clearly we did better while everyone was injured.

 

[ericd7633]

What about Ray Smith? AZ has had some legit injury issues this year.

PAC12 gets nastier every year though. I wouldn't call fans of about six different teams crazy if they thought they could win this tournament. Going to be a wild ride.

I'm aware of Smiths injury. All I'm saying is with or without Trier, Arizona was basically the same team.

 

[CCF151]

I could see Oregon looking ahead to the big dance and getting surprised by someone. If Altman can keep them focused I like their chances. Though I think Cal has the best chance to beat the Ducks. They just seem to match up well with their style of play.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Arizona definitely DID NOT underachieve this year.

Lost 4/5ths of their starting lineup from last season.
Lost Ray Smith, the 5* recruit that looked like the best player on the team during the preseason, for the year.
Lost Trier and Zeus each for extended time.

Had 3 transfers in their first year @ AZ in Anderson, Tollefson and Allen. Chemistry is important in CBB, especially when trying to establish an identity.

Still finished the season ranked 15 and will get a 5-6 seed more than likely in the tourney. Considering the turnover and injuries we've dealt with, plus the elevated play in the Pac12 as a whole, I think AZ had a fine season.

Not saying I'm thrilled with this team, but I knew what we were coming into the season. I wasn't that high on us even before the Ray Smith news…

 

[johnson]

I'm aware of Smiths injury. All I'm saying is with or without Trier, Arizona was basically the same team.

That's just not true. With or without Elliot Pitts...sure. Trier is too good a player to brush him off like that.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

I'm aware of Smiths injury. All I'm saying is with or without Trier, Arizona was basically the same team.

He's literally our only shot creator on the team. Sorry, but that's BS.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I'm aware of Smiths injury. All I'm saying is with or without Trier, Arizona was basically the same team.

This is what happens when you go off a piece of paper and not really knowing the team you're talking about.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I'm pretty sure that everyone picked Arizona to win the conference, they finished 4th. Maybe you guys lowered your standards down there???

Teams like Arizona aren't supposed to rebuild, they're supposed to reload. The season isn't over so maybe they will meld together. Maybe York taking over over against Cal will be their momentum push. Time will tell.

Just wanted to match this up with the following post, to illustrate that you talking out of your ass. Just because we didn't continue our back to back conference championships and back to back 30 win seasons doesn't mean the standards are lower. It just means that we are realistic with our expectations. AZ still has back to back to back to back 25 win seasons and have one loss at home in over 3 years. And that's just in the reg season. Oh, and Miller is still the winningest coach over the last 3 seasons.

Arizona definitely DID NOT underachieve this year.

Lost 4/5ths of their starting lineup from last season.
Lost Ray Smith, the 5* recruit that looked like the best player on the team during the preseason, for the year.
Lost Trier and Zeus each for extended time.

Had 3 transfers in their first year @ AZ in Anderson, Tollefson and Allen. Chemistry is important in CBB, especially when trying to establish an identity.

Still finished the season ranked 15 and will get a 5-6 seed more than likely in the tourney. Considering the turnover and injuries we've dealt with, plus the elevated play in the Pac12 as a whole, I think AZ had a fine season.

Not saying I'm thrilled with this team, but I knew what we were coming into the season. I wasn't that high on us even before the Ray Smith news…