OT: Sam Bradford re-vistited

[NinerSickness]

He's had 3 years in the NFL, and he's not a terrible QB. But I still think he qualifies as a bust at this point. My biggest criticism of him is his YPA. 6.72 is downright bad. It's a hair above Brandon Weeden. He just doesn't move the ball down the field efficiently enough IMO.

If people had to do the draft over, I'd say (and I said back then) Suh should be the 1st pick overall. 2nd might just be JPP (who I thought would be a bust too. :embarassed

Bradford may end up being a serviceable QB, but I think expectations are a little higher than that if you're taken 1st overall (especially over a guy like Suh).

Had to go back to this, because it's been pretty tough to make 1st round bust picks the last few years (although Tebow was a gimme in 2010).

 

[Dodub]

I think he's done well with what he's had. He's had no recievers since he was drafted and a shaky O-line. That along with not having a real deep threat and having Wes Welker's twin leads to a lot of short passes. They really do need to invest in some actual weapons on the outside, they have a stellar slot man and a servicable TE so now they need a least one guy on the outside who can go deep.

 

[imac_21]

If you're going to take a DT first overall, do you want Suh over Atkins?

 

[NinerSickness]

If you're going to take a DT first overall, do you want Suh over Atkins?

Yes. Suh may be a douche, but he's like Julius Peppers was (and Mario Williams & JJ Watt) when he was drafted; his talent level is just so high that I think he's going to be predictably dominant throughout his entire career (assuming he's healthy) even if his effort dips in certain times.

Atkins had a better 2012 than Suh though.

 

[Bemular]

He's had 3 years in the NFL, and he's not a terrible QB. But I still think he qualifies as a bust at this point. My biggest criticism of him is his YPA. 6.72 is downright bad.

This, combined with his YPC and his low completion percent are unacceptable at this level - no doubt.

I still like him as a QB and I agree with Dodub he could not have landed in a much worse situation, so I am not ready to label him a bust just yet. However, with the RGIII's, Luck's and now Wilson's of the league raising the bar for what is possible (and thus by default what will likely become expected) from a #1 overall pick and/or rookies in general - then next year without measurable improvement I will agree he is a bust.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Sam Bradford is the worst type of QB to have. Not quite terrible where a team is eeking to get rid of him, and not quite good enough for his team to take the next step. When he came out I compared him to Alex Smith and he's become just that, IMO.

 

[threelittleturds]

I couldn't disagree more.

As a rookie he had 18 TDs, 15 INTs, and 3500 yards with nothing close to a 1,000 yard receiver. 2 receivers with 600 yards, one 8.1 ypc and the other 11.7.

Last year he was hurt so it is a wash.

This year he has 21 TDs, 13 INTs, and 3700 yards with nothing again. Except this time he has 3 WRs flirting with 700 yards.

You give Bradford a real #1 and he's going to make life suck in the NFC West for everyone else, so, I hope they never find a guy like Megatron or Fitzgerald. I mean, if he's doing that with guys who can't get over 700 yards... look out if say, the Rams bring in Greg Jennings who just recently said he wanted to play in a dome. Jennings obviously isn't close to Megatron or Fitz, but he'd really open up their passing game.

 

[imac_21]

I couldn't disagree more.

As a rookie he had 18 TDs, 15 INTs, and 3500 yards with nothing close to a 1,000 yard receiver. 2 receivers with 600 yards, one 8.1 ypc and the other 11.7.

Last year he was hurt so it is a wash.

This year he has 21 TDs, 13 INTs, and 3700 yards with nothing again. Except this time he has 3 WRs flirting with 700 yards.

You give Bradford a real #1 and he's going to make life suck in the NFC West for everyone else, so, I hope they never find a guy like Megatron or Fitzgerald. I mean, if he's doing that with guys who can't get over 700 yards... look out if say, the Rams bring in Greg Jennings who just recently said he wanted to play in a dome. Jennings obviously isn't close to Megatron or Fitz, but he'd really open up their passing game.

Isn't this very much a chicken or egg scenario? Fitz this year had less than 800 yards. Is that reflective of him, or the QB he played with? People said very similar things about Alex Smith for years - if he ever gets a real #1 WR he can be scary.

But there are plenty of very good QBs getting the job done without a "real #1" WR. Rodgers (I know, it's because the refs make every call in GB's favour because they're all huge Packer fans and Goodel will have them executed if they don't make sure GB wins), Tom Brady. . . Hell, Russell Wilson.

Who was Michael Crabtree before Kaepernick took over?

Nothing about Sam Bradford suggests he has the tools to be a difference maker at QB. In either direction.

 

[threelittleturds]

Isn't this very much a chicken or egg scenario? Fitz this year had less than 800 yards. Is that reflective of him, or the QB he played with? People said very similar things about Alex Smith for years - if he ever gets a real #1 WR he can be scary.

But there are plenty of very good QBs getting the job done without a "real #1" WR. Rodgers (I know, it's because the refs make every call in GB's favour because they're all huge Packer fans and Goodel will have them executed if they don't make sure GB wins), Tom Brady. . . Hell, Russell Wilson.

Who was Michael Crabtree before Kaepernick took over?

Nothing about Sam Bradford suggests he has the tools to be a difference maker at QB. In either direction.

Sure, chicken-egg.

Oh wait, except for the fact that the Cardinal QBs combined have 11 TDs.

Did Bradford have 11 TDs with less than 700 yards receiving by his #1? Nope. You do realize that the QB situation in Arizona finalized at 11-21. So clearly, you have a solid point here... it is obviously a mirror image of the Rams. The Rams are being held back by that pathetic QB who threw more INTs than TDs with WRs who didn't top 700.

So, in the end, NOPE this is not chicken-egg

I like your little bitch digs at Rodgers though, so cute. After that game last Sunday where they ignored the rules and forgave McDipfuck for throwing the challenge flag ... then ignored 12 men in the huddle, you're still going to challenge that, haha, how naive and stupid of you.

 

[imac_21]

Sure, chicken-egg.

Oh wait, except for the fact that the Cardinal QBs combined have 11 TDs.

Did Bradford have 11 TDs with less than 700 yards receiving by his #1? Nope. You do realize that the QB situation in Arizona finalized at 11-21. So clearly, you have a solid point here... it is obviously a mirror image of the Rams. The Rams are being held back by that pathetic QB who threw more INTs than TDs with WRs who didn't top 700.

So, in the end, NOPE this is not chicken-egg

I like your little bitch digs at Rodgers though, so cute. After that game last Sunday where they ignored the rules and forgave McDipfuck for throwing the challenge flag ... then ignored 12 men in the huddle, you're still going to challenge that, haha, how naive and stupid of you.

Yeah, because that's what I was saying. Good God, exercise your mind.

Who was Wes Welker before he went to New England?

Who was Danario Alexander before SD? Oh yeah, he was a St Louis WR. He played 18 games for the Rams with your boy Sam Bradford. In those 18 games he had 46 catches on 97 targets for 737 yards and 3 TDs.

Then he went to SD this year, where he played 10 games. In SD he had 37 catches on 62 targets for 658 yards and 7 TDs.

How good is Austin Collie and the laundry list of WRs that played with Manning not named Harrison or Wayne? How about Deion Branch? Was that a good trade by the Seahawks? How did Robert Meachem do in SD?

But maybe you're right. WR production is unrelated to QB play. Sam Bradford is a Pro Bowl QB being held back by horrible WR play.

I think we can all agree that if Alex Smith got to play with a 1000 yard WR in his time with SF he would have been a Pro Bowler. But of course, as soon as Smith gets benched they bring in a 1000 yard WR in Michael Crabtree.

Too bad we didn't give him a big play WR like a Brandon Lloyd.

Wait, Sam Bradford played with Brandon Lloyd. Lloyd never caught more than 5 balls with Bradford. What's really disturbing about Lloyd's time in St Louis was the catches/targets ratio: 5/13, 4/9, 5/14, 5/10 and 5/12. 24 catches on 58 targets? Ugly. That's a catch rate of 41.3%. His catch rate for the season was 70/150 (46.7%). If you remove the Bradford games he had 46/92 for 50% exactly.

But no, Bradford's not a problem. He caught 19/33 playing with Tebow and Orton in Denver though.

Anyway, back to Alex Smith. Did you know that excluding Moss, Smith has played with 6 WRs that have had at least one 1000 yard season, yet none ever produced 1000 yards with Smith (Lloyd, Bryant, Bruce, Jackson, Lelie and Crabtree. The crazy thing is that - if you include Crabtree - three of those 6 (Crabtree, Bryant and Jackson) all had a 1000 yard season either the year immediately before or after playing with Smith.

Antonio Bryant played with Smith and had 40/733/3 then the next year in TB had 80/1248./7.

Darrell Jackson's last 5 years in Seattle where he played at least 13 games saw him go
70/1081/8 in 16 games
62/877/4 in 13 games
68/1137/9 in 16 games
87/1199/7 in 16 games
63/956/10 in 13 games

Then he came to SF where Alex Smith and Trent Dilfer managed to get
46/497/4 out of him in 15 games.

We can also play "fun with Crabtree's gamelog." Ignoring the first Rams game, where Smith got hurt, Crabtree caught was 39/440/3 in 8 games with Smith. In 7 games with CK he was 46/665/6.
Extrapolating to a 16 game season

with Smith: 69/782/5 (right about where he was the two years previous with Smith)
with CK7: 105/1520/14


But yeah, it must be the WRs that are causing Bradford problems. It couldn't be the lack of talent at QB resulting in poor production from the WRs. There's no evidence, even in our own backyard, that QB play affects WR production.

But you can ignore all the anecdotal evidence that opposes your theory. I know you have more conspiracy theories to hatch about the NFL and the Packers. Shit, now you're going to call me a troll.
FOH.

 

[threelittleturds]

You're so adorable, after all of this time you try to come up with some weak argument. All the while, completely ignoring my counter argument.

I'm really curious about one thing you bitch fuck, were you even a 49ers fan in the 90s?? The rule was 5 yards, but beyond that and up to 10 yards ... Brent Jones still found himself on his ass.

boom, 1996, Not only was the only TD of the game scored by the officials ignoring Merton Hanks tagging Beebe down, the same Hanks who is now VP and who ignores fines because that that play taught him one thing, they're not down until they are down.

How about two more? Do you remember when Edgar Bennett fell to his knees a yard short of the endzone, and then dove forward for the 2-point after he was dead, the rules haven't changed much since then. How about this, do you remember how in OT, the officials closed the fuck you door on the 49ers and gave the packers 15 extra yards on tyronne drakeford for tapping the ref on the shoulder? It was the kickoff, they pretty much said fuck you, ejection, 15 free yards make your FG

Shit, that was just 1996

How about 1997 when the 49ers stripped Henderson and Plummer picked it up for a home run TD, but called back by an official and crew who flagged the 49ers 22 times in Buffalo for speaking out against the in the 1998 regular season...

by the way, i left out the TD steve young threw to jj stokes that was ruled an incomplete pass... even though JJ left his feet and was pushed out of bounds by craig newsome, you think you're an old school fan?

push outs are legal today, but not legal then

i can never understand why any 49er fan accepts and welcomes packer fans and their bullshit, how many of you remember these plays and felt we got screwed?? yet you still welcome fucksticks like forkem and redsuckdick who only say the packers got the raw deal with the rice fumble

Fuck it, were you even a 49ers fan in the 90s? I am losing so much respect for you, I'm starting to see that you're such an asshole that you actually want to apologize to these faggot Packer fans because one time out of 4 years... the 49ers actually got a bad call in their favor, after 1995,1996,1997 bad calls.

You disgust me.

 

[BINGO]

I think he's done well with what he's had. He's had no recievers since he was drafted and a shaky O-line. That along with not having a real deep threat and having Wes Welker's twin leads to a lot of short passes. They really do need to invest in some actual weapons on the outside, they have a stellar slot man and a servicable TE so now they need a least one guy on the outside who can go deep.

I think he has performed very well for what he has to work with. Online / WRs-TEs are way below average they're bad. Bradford has a lot of talent. Fisher will surround Bradford with better weapons this offseason. Bradford was the right pick for that class.

 

[BINGO]

I couldn't disagree more.

As a rookie he had 18 TDs, 15 INTs, and 3500 yards with nothing close to a 1,000 yard receiver. 2 receivers with 600 yards, one 8.1 ypc and the other 11.7.

Last year he was hurt so it is a wash.

This year he has 21 TDs, 13 INTs, and 3700 yards with nothing again. Except this time he has 3 WRs flirting with 700 yards.

You give Bradford a real #1 and he's going to make life suck in the NFC West for everyone else, so, I hope they never find a guy like Megatron or Fitzgerald. I mean, if he's doing that with guys who can't get over 700 yards... look out if say, the Rams bring in Greg Jennings who just recently said he wanted to play in a dome. Jennings obviously isn't close to Megatron or Fitz, but he'd really open up their passing game.

Well said. It's sad that some people aren't able to see this blatant fact. He was criticized coming out of college saying he can't make "the NFL throws". He has proven them all wrong over the years. Some of them wouldn't even dare to admit that they made such comment.

His situation is alike like Michael Crabtree who was criticized wrongfully for his play. Crabtree with a better QB has quieted them all. Bradford will do the same when Fisher decides to bless him with talent. That team to be is a sleeping Giant in the NFC. Once their young cubs have matured in addition to Bradford being surrounded with better talent, we will have a front row seat to this perfect storm.

 

[BINGO]

Sure, chicken-egg.

Oh wait, except for the fact that the Cardinal QBs combined have 11 TDs.

Did Bradford have 11 TDs with less than 700 yards receiving by his #1? Nope. You do realize that the QB situation in Arizona finalized at 11-21. So clearly, you have a solid point here... it is obviously a mirror image of the Rams. The Rams are being held back by that pathetic QB who threw more INTs than TDs with WRs who didn't top 700.

So, in the end, NOPE this is not chicken-egg

I like your little bitch digs at Rodgers though, so cute. After that game last Sunday where they ignored the rules and forgave McDipfuck for throwing the challenge flag ... then ignored 12 men in the huddle, you're still going to challenge that, haha, how naive and stupid of you.

Threes, that's Mac for you. It's like playing a game of chess with a pigeon.

 

[Dodub]

Mac, he actually spread the ball around quite nicely this season. He had 3 recievers close to 700 yards recieving and one over 500 yards. He also has 4 receviers with over 40 catches and one with 38. He just doesn't have a complete receiver to make anyone worry, he uses Pettis as a red zone threat but Pettis has yet to show he can be a consistent threat. Give this guy a Dwayne Bowe and see what happens.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Lol, I hope the Rams organization keeps making these excuses for him and keeps him for a whole lot longer. I'd love that.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Can you do Vernon Davis this year too? Thx

Yeah, because that's what I was saying. Good God, exercise your mind.

Who was Wes Welker before he went to New England?

Who was Danario Alexander before SD? Oh yeah, he was a St Louis WR. He played 18 games for the Rams with your boy Sam Bradford. In those 18 games he had 46 catches on 97 targets for 737 yards and 3 TDs.

Then he went to SD this year, where he played 10 games. In SD he had 37 catches on 62 targets for 658 yards and 7 TDs.

How good is Austin Collie and the laundry list of WRs that played with Manning not named Harrison or Wayne? How about Deion Branch? Was that a good trade by the Seahawks? How did Robert Meachem do in SD?

But maybe you're right. WR production is unrelated to QB play. Sam Bradford is a Pro Bowl QB being held back by horrible WR play.

I think we can all agree that if Alex Smith got to play with a 1000 yard WR in his time with SF he would have been a Pro Bowler. But of course, as soon as Smith gets benched they bring in a 1000 yard WR in Michael Crabtree.

Too bad we didn't give him a big play WR like a Brandon Lloyd.

Wait, Sam Bradford played with Brandon Lloyd. Lloyd never caught more than 5 balls with Bradford. What's really disturbing about Lloyd's time in St Louis was the catches/targets ratio: 5/13, 4/9, 5/14, 5/10 and 5/12. 24 catches on 58 targets? Ugly. That's a catch rate of 41.3%. His catch rate for the season was 70/150 (46.7%). If you remove the Bradford games he had 46/92 for 50% exactly.

But no, Bradford's not a problem. He caught 19/33 playing with Tebow and Orton in Denver though.

Anyway, back to Alex Smith. Did you know that excluding Moss, Smith has played with 6 WRs that have had at least one 1000 yard season, yet none ever produced 1000 yards with Smith (Lloyd, Bryant, Bruce, Jackson, Lelie and Crabtree. The crazy thing is that - if you include Crabtree - three of those 6 (Crabtree, Bryant and Jackson) all had a 1000 yard season either the year immediately before or after playing with Smith.

Antonio Bryant played with Smith and had 40/733/3 then the next year in TB had 80/1248./7.

Darrell Jackson's last 5 years in Seattle where he played at least 13 games saw him go
70/1081/8 in 16 games
62/877/4 in 13 games
68/1137/9 in 16 games
87/1199/7 in 16 games
63/956/10 in 13 games

Then he came to SF where Alex Smith and Trent Dilfer managed to get
46/497/4 out of him in 15 games.

We can also play "fun with Crabtree's gamelog." Ignoring the first Rams game, where Smith got hurt, Crabtree caught was 39/440/3 in 8 games with Smith. In 7 games with CK he was 46/665/6.
Extrapolating to a 16 game season

with Smith: 69/782/5 (right about where he was the two years previous with Smith)
with CK7: 105/1520/14


But yeah, it must be the WRs that are causing Bradford problems. It couldn't be the lack of talent at QB resulting in poor production from the WRs. There's no evidence, even in our own backyard, that QB play affects WR production.

But you can ignore all the anecdotal evidence that opposes your theory. I know you have more conspiracy theories to hatch about the NFL and the Packers. Shit, now you're going to call me a troll.
FOH.

 

[MHSL82]

Can you do Vernon Davis this year too? Thx

I'll do it for you. Vernon statistically has dropped since Kaep came in. However, VD was absent statistically in a few Alex games before Kaep took over. Davis was gone in two consecutive games after big hits, which would potentially lower his numbers (unless he would have just disappeared anyways). The NO game was not that bad for VD, so good so that VD said the handcuffs were taken off him. Maybe we were game-planning VD into the game differently after the decision was made? Kaep, like all QBs, also has missed open guys a bit. Alex, too, was criticized for that, even with his experience. Presumably, if VD weren't Alex's favorite, Crabtree would have had at least 500 yards by Week 8 - on pace for 1000 but below Kaep's pace with Crabs.

That doesn't change the fact that Alex was more successful with Davis than Hill, Troy, or JTO, but that'll be enough to dismiss VD's lack of production with Kaep if one wants to defend Kaep. Having said that, we need Kaep to use VD more, at least to open up the WRs more and the running game. VD needs to go all out for passes by Kaep, work on his chemistry with him, stop jumping if the ball comes late or there's a defender there, and the coaches need to call plays for Vernon Davis.

 

[imac_21]

You're so adorable, after all of this time you try to come up with some weak argument. All the while, completely ignoring my counter argument.

I'm really curious about one thing you bitch fuck, were you even a 49ers fan in the 90s?? The rule was 5 yards, but beyond that and up to 10 yards ... Brent Jones still found himself on his ass.

boom, 1996, Not only was the only TD of the game scored by the officials ignoring Merton Hanks tagging Beebe down, the same Hanks who is now VP and who ignores fines because that that play taught him one thing, they're not down until they are down.

How about two more? Do you remember when Edgar Bennett fell to his knees a yard short of the endzone, and then dove forward for the 2-point after he was dead, the rules haven't changed much since then. How about this, do you remember how in OT, the officials closed the fuck you door on the 49ers and gave the packers 15 extra yards on tyronne drakeford for tapping the ref on the shoulder? It was the kickoff, they pretty much said fuck you, ejection, 15 free yards make your FG

Shit, that was just 1996

How about 1997 when the 49ers stripped Henderson and Plummer picked it up for a home run TD, but called back by an official and crew who flagged the 49ers 22 times in Buffalo for speaking out against the in the 1998 regular season...

by the way, i left out the TD steve young threw to jj stokes that was ruled an incomplete pass... even though JJ left his feet and was pushed out of bounds by craig newsome, you think you're an old school fan?

push outs are legal today, but not legal then

i can never understand why any 49er fan accepts and welcomes packer fans and their bullshit, how many of you remember these plays and felt we got screwed?? yet you still welcome fucksticks like forkem and redsuckdick who only say the packers got the raw deal with the rice fumble

Fuck it, were you even a 49ers fan in the 90s? I am losing so much respect for you, I'm starting to see that you're such an asshole that you actually want to apologize to these faggot Packer fans because one time out of 4 years... the 49ers actually got a bad call in their favor, after 1995,1996,1997 bad calls.

You disgust me.

Your counter argument? Your counter argument in a thread about Sam Bradford's play being hampered by bad WRs is Niner/Packer controversies from the 90s?

Are you fucking serious? I post paragraphs about WRs and QBs followed by 1 sentence about the Packers and that's where your focus goes.

You wonder if I was a Niner fan in the 90s? I wonder if you have ever been a Niner fan, or just a Packer hater.

But fuck it. Get back on topic. Explain to all of us how poor WR production is a reflection of QB play, but the reverse is not true?

 

[imac_21]

Well said. It's sad that some people aren't able to see this blatant fact. He was criticized coming out of college saying he can't make "the NFL throws". He has proven them all wrong over the years. Some of them wouldn't even dare to admit that they made such comment.

His situation is alike like Michael Crabtree who was criticized wrongfully for his play. Crabtree with a better QB has quieted them all. Bradford will do the same when Fisher decides to bless him with talent. That team to be is a sleeping Giant in the NFC. Once their young cubs have matured in addition to Bradford being surrounded with better talent, we will have a front row seat to this perfect storm.

Well said? He played with Brandon Lloyd, who was a 1400 yard WR. You're agreeing with a statement that he's never had anything close to a 1000 yard WR? I suppose 1400 yards is no closer to 1000 that 600, so Lloyd wasn't close to a 1000 yard WR. He was close to a 1500 yard WR.

Danario Alexander had 658 yards in 10 games this year. That projects to 1053 yards. Does that count as close to a 1000 yard WR.

Like I said in an earlier post, that I'm sure was too long for you to follow, Alex Smith played with six 1000 yard WRs (not counting Moss). Just none of them got 1000 yards with Smith. Sometimes the problem is the QB.