Orlando Brown

[CrashDavisSports]

I remember back in the day hoping like hell the Bengals would draft him in the 2nd round, instead I think he went on to our 3rd round pick and we still didn't draft him only to see him get drafted by the Ravens and go on to 2 Pro-Bowls in 4 years.

I know that teams don't usually trade within the division, but what would you be willing to offer up for a young man at the prime of his career in a position we desperately need from a division rival?

I would be willing to trade this years 1st round pick and 4th round pick, along with next years 1st round pick and 4th round pick.

Sign Brown to a large extension for 6 to 8 years. Sign Thuney to play guard. All of a sudden, we have a semblance of an offensive line. Draft Wyatt Davis in the 2nd round at G or that other kid Quinn Meinerz in the 3rd round.

Sign another CB with the 2nd or 3rd round pick, while resigning Lawson and let Joesph walk. I would rather use his money on Brown's extension and a chance at Thuney. Plus, we would not be spending 1st round money for the next two years so that helps elevate some financial burden. This could drain us a bit in youth, but I really don't feel like we are in rebuilding mode with our QB. I just think we need to protect him and get better at calling a game plan, specifically on defense. However, I would like to see us run the ball more often to also protect Joe. These moves help protect both Joes on offense.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

As a note, only reason I am bringing this up is because Brown doesn't want to go back to being a RT, he wants to be a LT and is battling with Baltimore over it. Baltimore will probably eventually cave in order to keep him, but Brown was mentioned on NFL.com as 1 of 5 players that SHOULD BE traded this offseason.

Granted, my proposal would cost the Bengals so much more in draft compensation along with salary, versus just going after Sewell, but who knows what you have. Granted, the Bengals don't make trades like this or spend that kind of money, Baltimore doesn't make trades in the division, and Sewell could be just as good, but this was an outside the box thought to improve things immediately for the offensive Joes if not sold on Sewell or he was gone come pick 5.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Let someone else overpay. I'm not trading draft picks and helping out salary for an in-division rival - especially when there are several good options both in F/A and in the draft.

I see where you are coming from - but one of the big points of grabbing an OL in F/A is not only to shore up the line, but added flexibility in the draft. This team is more than just one OL away - and giving up a 1st and others for him - no thanks.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Let someone else overpay. I'm not trading draft picks and helping out salary for an in-division rival - especially when there are several good options both in F/A and in the draft.

I see where you are coming from - but one of the big points of grabbing an OL in F/A is not only to shore up the line, but added flexibility in the draft. This team is more than just one OL away - and giving up a 1st and others for him - no thanks.

Well, I never mentioned Brown as my only addition.

I mentioned Orlando Brown moving to LT, Joe Thuney getting put in at LG, us signing another C/G in Davis or Meinerz which also moves Williams to RT.

The new line would be:

LT Brown
LG Thuney
C Meinerz (until Hopkins is ready to come back)
RG Spain (until Meinerz moves back from center after Hopkins comes back)
RT Williams

Just saying, that is a massive change in a single year so it does fix our oline. Now, we do lose cap space due to his extension and we lose draft capital. But if you are going to lose draft capital, don't you want it to be lost on a sure bet at your most desired position left on the team who is young enough to stick around for 6 to 8 good to great years? Williams was supposed to be a sure bet too and the best lineman in the draft, and while he has been pretty good, he is by far a sure thing and he has been injury prone.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Well, I never mentioned Brown as my only addition.

I mentioned Orlando Brown moving to LT, Joe Thuney getting put in at LG, us signing another C/G in Davis or Meinerz which also moves Williams to RT.

The new line would be:

LT Brown
LG Thuney
C Meinerz (until Hopkins is ready to come back)
RG Spain (until Meinerz moves back from center after Hopkins comes back)
RT Williams

Just saying, that is a massive change in a single year so it does fix our oline. Now, we do lose cap space due to his extension and we lose draft capital. But if you are going to lose draft capital, don't you want it to be lost on a sure bet at your most desired position left on the team who is young enough to stick around for 6 to 8 good to great years? Williams was supposed to be a sure bet too and the best lineman in the draft, and while he has been pretty good, he is by far a sure thing and he has been injury prone.

Right, but I'm not giving up a top 5 pick for Brown when you can literally sign a solid top tier LT and/or OG in F/A and still get several players at 5 of note, or even trade back a few spots and get more picks.

This team needs a lot. It needs another play-maker on offense (be it WR or TE). It needs OL help, obviously, but OL depth as well. It needs pass-rush and a starting DT as well as depth across the DL. It needs more CB help/depth and it needs probably 1 more LB and maybe even a safety.

Point being - I'm not trading away picks AND cap space for a position that I can simply get for cap-space.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Right, but I'm not giving up a top 5 pick for Brown when you can literally sign a solid top tier LT and/or OG in F/A and still get several players at 5 of note, or even trade back a few spots and get more picks.

This team needs a lot. It needs another play-maker on offense (be it WR or TE). It needs OL help, obviously, but OL depth as well. It needs pass-rush and a starting DT as well as depth across the DL. It needs more CB help/depth and it needs probably 1 more LB and maybe even a safety.

Point being - I'm not trading away picks AND cap space for a position that I can simply get for cap-space.

I get you.

I personally don't think we are in as much of a rebuilding phase as you believe. I think you fix the oline and get healthy, I think we are competitive next year and push for the playoffs. LB and DE is going to be our biggest need with us moving to a 3-4 defense, not DT or CB. Granted, CB could use an upgrade especially at depth, but with Atkins age and us moving to a hybrid 3-4, he is either a cut potential, trade potential or play out of position a bit at his age.

DE Atkins / Kareem
DT Reader / Tupou
DE Hubbard / Bledsoe

OLB Lawson
MLB Wilson
MLB Pratt
OLB Davis-Gaither

CB Waynes
CB Alexander
S Bates
S Bell

And while I would love to get my hands on Pitts in the draft, sign Moton in FA for RT along with Thuney, I don't think there is any way in hell we sign two high priced free agents for the oline in free agency. So if Thuney is the sign, forget about Moton. Which means Sewell has to be the pick if he is there I guess. However, I am not believing in Slater and these other guys being pushed by analysts as the pick for the Bengals if Slater is gone. I would rather have Pitts or Chase if Sewell is gone and take our chances in the next round or two.

I hear you though.

 

[alf8478]

I wouldn't trade those 4 picks for a quarterback, let alone a cranky guy who's played half a season at left tackle and wants a huge payday.

I can stay where I am, get a top tackle prospect on a rookie deal, and not give my division rival a top 5 pick.

Now, if you want to talk second round pick, and a 2022 pick, I would do that.

 

[DanBengalfan]

The Bengals aren't that proactive, but it would be fun to see.

I don't like the idea of trading picks though.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Been reading some Bingalswire lately and they have some interesting ideas.

Chase a prove deal with Jadeveon Clowney

Should Bengals chase prove-it deal free agents like Jadeveon Clowney?

Could Jadeveon Clowney be a Cincinnati Bengals target in free agency this offseason?

bengalswire.usatoday.com

Draft WR Ja'Marr Chase in round 1 and OT Teven Jenkins in round 2

Bengals grab Ja'Marr Chase and an OL upgrade in new 2-round mock draft

The Cincinnati Bengals go big in a new mock draft.

bengalswire.usatoday.com

Good insight into those two players on that link. Chase is #2 in most explosive plays over 15+ yards in the last two years despite taking last year off. That is crazy explosive. Jenkins probably graded out as one of the top pass blocking tackles in all of college football with a grade of 90 in his limited number of pass blocking sets over the last 3 years. He also graded out as the 2nd best run blocking RT during that 3 year span.

SI predicts Bengals sign Joey Thuney in Free Agency

Bengals Projected to Make Monster OL Signing in Latest Free Agent Rankings

This would be a huge upgrade!

www.si.com

SI thinks the Bengals should look at trading a 3rd day pick for Rob Havenstein, RT, Rams

Could Bengals Bolster O-Line With Rams Looking to Make a Deal?

Rams Right Tackle Rob Havenstein is reportedly "available via trade"

www.si.com

Bengals with possible Cap Space Cuts to free up more room for upgrades:
OL BJ Finney 3.5 million
OL Billy Price 2.1 million
OL Su'a-Filo 2.6 million
OL Bobby Hart 5.9 million
DT Geno Atkins 9.5 million

Then of course not paying for an expensive QB this year and letting AJ Green and his $18 million from last year walk.

A lot of cap casualties this year and potential 1 year deals for quality vets to weather the decreased league revenue. There are chances out there to improve.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I get you.

I personally don't think we are in as much of a rebuilding phase as you believe. I think you fix the oline and get healthy, I think we are competitive next year and push for the playoffs. LB and DE is going to be our biggest need with us moving to a 3-4 defense, not DT or CB. Granted, CB could use an upgrade especially at depth, but with Atkins age and us moving to a hybrid 3-4, he is either a cut potential, trade potential or play out of position a bit at his age.

DE Atkins / Kareem
DT Reader / Tupou
DE Hubbard / Bledsoe

OLB Lawson
MLB Wilson
MLB Pratt
OLB Davis-Gaither

CB Waynes
CB Alexander
S Bates
S Bell

And while I would love to get my hands on Pitts in the draft, sign Moton in FA for RT along with Thuney, I don't think there is any way in hell we sign two high priced free agents for the oline in free agency. So if Thuney is the sign, forget about Moton. Which means Sewell has to be the pick if he is there I guess. However, I am not believing in Slater and these other guys being pushed by analysts as the pick for the Bengals if Slater is gone. I would rather have Pitts or Chase if Sewell is gone and take our chances in the next round or two.

I hear you though.

In the end it comes down to this, for me.

I'm not going to spend money on a guy AND give up picks to do so, when I can find the same/similar guy in F/A and keep my pick.

 

[cincygrad]

In the modern NFL it doesn't make sense to me to trade high draft picks for big contracts. I'm not saying I'm fully on the Bengals side of loving 4th and 5th round comp picks! But, high picks are generally good chances to get players for little money and a lot of control (4 or 5 years).

 

[CrashDavisSports]

In the modern NFL it doesn't make sense to me to trade high draft picks for big contracts. I'm not saying I'm fully on the Bengals side of loving 4th and 5th round comp picks! But, high picks are generally good chances to get players for little money and a lot of control (4 or 5 years).

That is all very true. However, when you draft them, what are you getting? Cedric Obuehi or Andrew Whitworth? You getting Jamarcus Russell or Tom Brady? #1 overall pick versus #199. The draft is a crap shoot no matter what round you are picking in.

I don't disagree that a team like Cincinnati that doesn't spend big because of the market and owner should be spending big money on FA. All I am saying is you know what you are getting, but even then, will they stay healthy, maintain motivation to get better once they hit the big contract? Too much about this game is a gamble.

Young franchise LT's are not something you can normally get even in a trade. If you have the opportunity, I am just saying you consider it based on what you feel the value is to your team and the asking price. If it is a second rounder this year and a 1st rounder next year? Does that seem more doable? I mean Tunsel the tackle for the Texans went to them for 2 - 1st round picks. He wound up costing the Texans a 3rd overall pick and another pick.

 

[Cincyfan78]

In the modern NFL it doesn't make sense to me to trade high draft picks for big contracts. I'm not saying I'm fully on the Bengals side of loving 4th and 5th round comp picks! But, high picks are generally good chances to get players for little money and a lot of control (4 or 5 years).

Agreed.

And in this scenario - it really doesn't make sense. Why over pay for a guy who's had like half a year at LT - has shown he can be a bit of a mal-content when you can land someone for about the same amount of money who has more history at LT and doesn't cost a top 5 pick, or even a 2nd round pick.

The amount of talent that is being gathered is less than what is being traded for.

In this scenario let's say they trade for Brown. If they pay him that much, are they going to sign another OL? With that unknown - you know that Sewell isn't going to be the pick because the Bengals traded that pick. So, you are let hoping that a really good OL is still there in the 2nd and/or 3rd rounds.

In signing just 1 F/A, let's say Thuney - maybe they don't sign another F/A, but at least there is still a chance to grab Sewell if there. If not, they grab Pitts (or Chase, or whoever) and the offensive weapons are still upgraded. Or they can trade back and gain more picks. The amount of talent they can add plus the amount of flexibility with the draft makes trading for Brown pretty much a non-factor, IMO.

 

[Cincyfan78]

That is all very true. However, when you draft them, what are you getting? Cedric Obuehi or Andrew Whitworth? You getting Jamarcus Russell or Tom Brady? #1 overall pick versus #199. The draft is a crap shoot no matter what round you are picking in.

I don't disagree that a team like Cincinnati that doesn't spend big because of the market and owner should be spending big money on FA. All I am saying is you know what you are getting, but even then, will they stay healthy, maintain motivation to get better once they hit the big contract? Too much about this game is a gamble.

Young franchise LT's are not something you can normally get even in a trade. If you have the opportunity, I am just saying you consider it based on what you feel the value is to your team and the asking price. If it is a second rounder this year and a 1st rounder next year? Does that seem more doable? I mean Tunsel the tackle for the Texans went to them for 2 - 1st round picks. He wound up costing the Texans a 3rd overall pick and another pick.

Here's the thing - he was a LT for like half a season. That's not a lot of history to suddenly be barking to be paid like a top LT.

Sign a F/A that has a better track record AND keep the top 5 pick. It's true you never know what you are going to get, but at least you get a chance to take a shot. It's better than not getting that chance at all.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Here's the thing - he was a LT for like half a season. That's not a lot of history to suddenly be barking to be paid like a top LT.

Sign a F/A that has a better track record AND keep the top 5 pick. It's true you never know what you are going to get, but at least you get a chance to take a shot. It's better than not getting that chance at all.

Yes, but aren't you actually taking a shot with that trade also? Trying to improve right now?

The Rams are a perfect example of this lately, Stafford, Ramsey, etc.. While I am not requesting that we become frivolous like the Rams, I do think sometimes you take those risks. 2nd rounder this year and 1st rounder next year where it is a possibility we could be drafting in the early 20's? Could wind up bad like the Texans did with Tunsel, but you never know.

I am okay with skipping as well. Taking our chances on Sewell at #5 or Jenkins in the 2nd round. The more I look into Jenkins the more and more I start to fall in love with that guy.

#2 overall run blocker in college football over the last 3 years.
#1 rated pass blocker at RT in college football over last 3 years on passing formations [90 rating]. (limited opportunities at 128 or something like that, but #1 none the less.)

Pitts or Chase @ #1, and Jenkins at #2, and Quinn Meinerz C/G at #3 sounds like a quality top of our draft.

Get Thuney and a good defensive player in FA, resign Lawson. Let Jackson, Green walk. Cut Hart and Finney. Trade Atkins to a 4-3 team for a mid round pick, like 4th or 5th rounder. Resign Bates now for the long term.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Yes, but aren't you actually taking a shot with that trade also? Trying to improve right now?

The Rams are a perfect example of this lately, Stafford, Ramsey, etc.. While I am not requesting that we become frivolous like the Rams, I do think sometimes you take those risks. 2nd rounder this year and 1st rounder next year where it is a possibility we could be drafting in the early 20's? Could wind up bad like the Texans did with Tunsel, but you never know.

I am okay with skipping as well. Taking our chances on Sewell at #5 or Jenkins in the 2nd round. The more I look into Jenkins the more and more I start to fall in love with that guy.

#2 overall run blocker in college football over the last 3 years.
#1 rated pass blocker at RT in college football over last 3 years on passing formations [90 rating]. (limited opportunities at 128 or something like that, but #1 none the less.)

Pitts or Chase @ #1, and Jenkins at #2, and Quinn Meinerz C/G at #3 sounds like a quality top of our draft.

Get Thuney and a good defensive player in FA, resign Lawson. Let Jackson, Green walk. Cut Hart and Finney. Trade Atkins to a 4-3 team for a mid round pick, like 4th or 5th rounder. Resign Bates now for the long term.

I also think that if you are going to start giving up 1st and/or 2nd round picks for guys - A they need to be a bit more established - and B, they need to be a final piece to the puzzle.

The Bengals may not be far off from a skill position standpoint - but the OL has 4 holes that need to be fixed. The DL needs 2, and likely 3 more players. The DB's need another guy that can man the slot as well as some depth with how wide open NFL offenses are. Maybe a LB and a Safety as well.

If we were talking about needing 1 OL and the rest were set - and then maybe just another 1 or 2 guys - I'd be more inclined to agree with trading higher draft picks to close those last few gaps. The Bengals still need a lot more - and right now the draft is the best way to fill a majority of them while maintaining the ability to re-sign their own: Lawson, Bates, and add a key F/A or two.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

I watched all the skins and Ravens games last year, and this guy is about to ruin his career. His success is based on their scheme, he won't be nearly as good in the cincy offense. He's making a big mistake but its HIS dream

 

[futballiscool]

In the modern NFL it doesn't make sense to me to trade high draft picks for big contracts. I'm not saying I'm fully on the Bengals side of loving 4th and 5th round comp picks! But, high picks are generally good chances to get players for little money and a lot of control (4 or 5 years).

A lot of that depends on the overall quality of the roster and how close it is to Super Bowl contention imo. If you're a piece or two away from a deep playoff run I'm not opposed to trading high picks for high salaried veterans. If you're rebuilding I'd keep the picks unless it's for a young franchise QB (who are almost never on the market )

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Good thread. Glad everyone participated. I like seeing stuff to talk about and people participating. You all convinced me that would not be the way to go. Thumbs up to everyone!

 

[cincygrad]

A lot of that depends on the overall quality of the roster and how close it is to Super Bowl contention imo. If you're a piece or two away from a deep playoff run I'm not opposed to trading high picks for high salaried veterans. If you're rebuilding I'd keep the picks unless it's for a young franchise QB (who are almost never on the market )

Agreed that there are times when it is savvy. The Steelers were a good example of how to do it when they traded a first rounder for Minkah Fitzpatrick. Given that they almost always pick in the 20s (even in down years), giving up a first rounder for a young guy that is a terrific fit for their system and an all-pro level performer is a no-brainer. They aren't necessarily finding that same safety in the draft and they had a window open for a championship.