Norris Trophy talk

[esls79]

Three finalists are Keith, Doughty, and Green.

I'm fine with Keith and Doughty, but Green this season doesn't cut it for me. Green is a heck of a talent, but his defensive acumen just isn't what I'd consider a d-man to have. I would have taken Pronger or Yandle over Green for the Norris for the third selection.

 

[dash]

Keith should win it in a close vote over Doughty with Green a distant 3rd in my opinion. Green needs to either work on his defensive game or put up Orr/Coffey numbers to add some Norris hardware.

 

[HonusWagner66]

I don't think there is a clear-cut third finalist out there. If someone like Pronger was picked, people could be making a case for Green. I see it as Keith and Doughty --then a gap -- then guys like Pronger, Green, Boyle, ect. Green isn't a terrible pick because he has put up great offensive numbers (of course he is lucky he has great talent around him), even if he isn't great defensively. If he finishes higher than third, then I'd have a problem, but I really don't have too much of a gripe with him being the third finalist.

 

[MM213]

Totally agree on Green. He shouldn't be on this list until he learns how to play defense.

 

[Squatchito]

Green is there because it is tough to keep the top point producing defender of the list these days. He was the only point per game defensive regular this season, so there is something to be said there. I think Yandle would have been my third man in.

As was said there is Keith and Doughty and then everyone else this year. They could flip a coin and get it right. Keith would get the slight edge for me.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Shea Weber means more to his team than Mike Green.

It should have been Keith, Doughty and Weber.

Keith deserves it most this year, IMO.

 

[GagneFire12]

Keith deserves it this year, but the way Doughty is developing - he'll be Norris winner very, very soon.

 

[Slimpikins]

Add another vote for Keith, he has had a stellar year.

 

[Urkie]

I would say Keith as well. He was awesome this year.

 

[sTyLnK]

Green's +39 is overrated IMO. Especially when the Caps had insane offense all year. They could have replaced him with a bag of pucks and they would have been fine on the back end. My choice would be Doughty. Great numbers, rarely makes a mistake and was +20 on a team that wasn't even supposed to be in the playoffs.

 

[Dacks]

Keith for the win. I think Doughty will win a few in a row somewhere down the line, the kid is GREAT.

If Green knew how to play any defense around his own net, he'd be in contention. I guess since the votes went before the playoffs started he has a shot...

 

[naslundfan19]

Keith, but barely. Doughty could change my mind these next 2-3 games.

 

[OUVan59]

Keith for the win. I think Doughty will win a few in a row somewhere down the line, the kid is GREAT.

If Green knew how to play any defense around his own net, he'd be in contention. I guess since the votes went before the playoffs started he has a shot...

Somebody is going to have to explain to me why Keith is better defensively than Green. Obviously I don't get to watch him play as much as Green but from what I see he is no better defensively than Green. I'll preface that by saying that Green isn't as bad defensively as some of you guys seem to think. He's not Pronger but he's not terrible. He really improved his defensive game the last half of the season. Now onto the comparison of Keith, Green and Doughty:

Offensive

Goals on ice for (even strength)
Green - 101
Keith - 102
Doughty - 70

Points
Green - 76
Keith - 69
Doughty - 59

Percentage of Teams Goals On Ice For
Green - 50.63%
Keith - 47.23%
Doughty - 50.62%

Goals Allowed while on ice (even strength)
Green - 62
Keith - 81
Doughty - 50

Plus/Minus
Green - +39
Keith - +21
Doughty - +20

Blocks
Green - 105
Keith - 143
Doughty - 76

Hits
Green - 133
Keith - 46
Doughty - 157

Percentage of Teams Goals Against On Ice For
Green - 34.76%
Keith - 48.80%
Doughty - 31.96%

Considering that Chicago is one of the best overall defensive teams in hockey and Washington isn't these numbers tell a story that doesn't coincide with what you guys are claiming. No problem with Doughty getting the Norris but I don't get Keith.

 

[Dacks]

It's the same argument we've had before about Crosby and Ovechkin. Stats can be great but only get you so far. Green is NOT great defensively, and his biggest weakness is playing around his own net. He is always looking for the puck instead of clearing the area of opposing players. Obviously, that's my opinion but I think a lof of people feel the same way.

 

[scottflyers88]

the blocks mean a lot. take out the hits also. hits mean almost nothing. they do mean something although the stats mean nothing. in some arenas the scorer score everything as a hit. for instance i know in the wachovia center you have to earn hits and in other places they give out hits for bumping somebody.

basically it should go to the best defenseman. not best offensive defenseman. a defenders first job is to keep the puck out of his net. the flyers could put richards on the back end and he could get a point per game and be ok on defense. of course green would be better. i am just saying people put a lot of stock into points which should not be. could a defensive defenseman win the awards now?

and i know some people were saying pronger. i did not expect him to get a nomination although the guy is amazing. he turned carle back into a legit defenseman. he was also a plus 22 or something on a team where no other defensive pairing was a plus. that is pretty amazing. i also believe time on ice is an important stat. do you know the time on ice for the guys who were nominated?

 

[Darkstone42]

Somebody is going to have to explain to me why Keith is better defensively than Green. Obviously I don't get to watch him play as much as Green but from what I see he is no better defensively than Green. I'll preface that by saying that Green isn't as bad defensively as some of you guys seem to think. He's not Pronger but he's not terrible. He really improved his defensive game the last half of the season. Now onto the comparison of Keith, Green and Doughty:

Offensive

Goals on ice for (even strength)
Green - 101
Keith - 102
Doughty - 70

Points
Green - 76
Keith - 69
Doughty - 59

Percentage of Teams Goals On Ice For
Green - 50.63%
Keith - 47.23%
Doughty - 50.62%

Goals Allowed while on ice (even strength)
Green - 62
Keith - 81
Doughty - 50

Plus/Minus
Green - +39
Keith - +21
Doughty - +20

Blocks
Green - 105
Keith - 143
Doughty - 76

Hits
Green - 133
Keith - 46
Doughty - 157

Percentage of Teams Goals Against On Ice For
Green - 34.76%
Keith - 48.80%
Doughty - 31.96%

Considering that Chicago is one of the best overall defensive teams in hockey and Washington isn't these numbers tell a story that doesn't coincide with what you guys are claiming. No problem with Doughty getting the Norris but I don't get Keith.

In order to know what these stats mean, you have to knowt he capacities in which each defenseman plays. Keith is his team's shut-down defenseman. Green is not. Keith is drawing tougher defensive matchups than is Green, and that's a large contributing factor to the numbers you posted.

I would also take Keith, then Doughty. My third would have been either Weber or Pronger. But I honestly didn't have Green very far down my list, if for no reason other than his ridiculous point totals. I have no problem with Green being the third nominee, but I would have put someone else in.

 

[davnlaguna]

Kings fan but I don't think I am too bias. Doughty should be (and is saying he is) happy to be nominated. I think that if he hadn't shown how good we was at the Olympics he would not have been in the top three. All this talk of him being the next Bobby Orr needs to stop. Yes he is young, but he can never be the next Orr. Just like there can never be the next Gretzky. The league is too and there are too many good players. After all that I hope Drew wins. Ok fan bias caught up to me. He is a great player and a nice guy. The Kings and their fans are happy to have him.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Dave, I agree that no one, including Doughty, is going to be the next Bobby Orr. What Doughty does remind me of, is a young Chris Chelios. Less dirty, better skating, IMO.

Basically there's no aspect of his game that's weak. He's incredibly smart, he's a great skater, he's great positionally, he's got amazing skills, and he's physical for his size. If his development curve continues, it's going to be pretty tough to wrestle the Norris from him for the next decade and a half.

 

[elocomotive]

basically it should go to the best defenseman. not best offensive defenseman. a defenders first job is to keep the puck out of his net.

Look, I'm not here to make a case for Green for this, even though I'm a Caps' fan, but above is absolutely NOT what this award is for. A la the NHL, the Norris Trophy is awarded to a "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position." All around!

Best defensemen means a combination of offensive and defensive skills. And being able to help with the transition game from defense to offense helps a team keep the puck out of their own zone. Green is clearly the worst of the 3 on the defensive end, but he does lead in goals, assists, points, and has the best +/- as a D-man besides his defensive partner Jeff Schultz.

If I were a writer, I'd vote for Doughty, but Green has a solid resume this year and has played much better defensively this year than the playoffs indicate thus far for those of you getting your first glimpse at him.

 

[davnlaguna]

Dave, I agree that no one, including Doughty, is going to be the next Bobby Orr. What Doughty does remind me of, is a young Chris Chelios. Less dirty, better skating, IMO.

Basically there's no aspect of his game that's weak. He's incredibly smart, he's a great skater, he's great positionally, he's got amazing skills, and he's physical for his size. If his development curve continues, it's going to be pretty tough to wrestle the Norris from him for the next decade and a half.

I remember when he was being drafted the knock on him was he was the best D-man in the draft, but he had reached his peak. He is everything the Kings hoped for and more. Some day they will be saying (xxxxx) is the next Drew Doughty.