Marte V Grossman - FIGHT IT OUT!

[Illinest]

2 games played since the last post
4 for 8, 2 BB, 2 SO, 1 HR.
The OPS is up into the 1.1 range and he's now 6th in the AFL in OPS.

Also - and I'm not going to go back and track down every comment I've seen but you can really see the difference in opinions given by the knowledgable analysts. Law, Goldstein etc...
Before AFL it was like - 'not a prospect' but now they're all saying he's opening eyes and I even heard he's in the mix for the top 100 list that... is it BP does that?

 

[Darkstone42]

2 games played since the last post
4 for 8, 2 BB, 2 SO, 1 HR.
The OPS is up into the 1.1 range and he's now 6th in the AFL in OPS.

Also - and I'm not going to go back and track down every comment I've seen but you can really see the difference in opinions given by the knowledgable analysts. Law, Goldstein etc...
Before AFL it was like - 'not a prospect' but now they're all saying he's opening eyes and I even heard he's in the mix for the top 100 list that... is it BP does that?

I don't see how he could ever be deemed "not a prospect," though I can certainly see an argument that he wouldn't have a high likelihood of panning out. Meh, good news he's getting noticed, though.

 

[element1286]

I doubt many of those guys saw him play very often during the season. Considering he was repeating a level, his stats aren't that meaningful. But when he shows up in the AFL and looks the part in a scouting sense, and has the numbers to back it up, they take notice.

 

[Illinest]

His assault on the AFL batting crown continues unabated.
.409 BA, .494 OBP, 1.161 OPS good for fourth in the league.

Oh and he's got more than 80 plate appearances when most of the other guys at the top of the list have less than 50.

 

[magnumo]

Closing the Gap

For those of us who had Marte well ahead of Grossman on our Pirate Prospect list, I gotta believe that Grossman's AFL performance is closing the gap. I agree that doing it that well in the AFL gives him more credence than doing it while repeating a level.

I won't get too gushy until Grossman brings his improved performance to AA, but it sure looks like he's shining up his prospect status. Good news indeed!

 

[element1286]

Thought this was interesting from KLaw's chat yesterday.

Steve (boston)

who do you like better between Robbie Grossman and starling marte?


Klaw (2:03 PM)

Grossman. That's not really close.

 

[Illinest]

I think I remember Law not caring too much about Grossman before the AFL, so I'm gonna guess that Law just hadn't seen Grossman much prior to AFL.

And then I would also guess that Law hasn't seen enough of Marte either. You guys know I like Grossman but I don't see how Law can make that statement about them.

 

[element1286]

True, he probably hasn't seen him much till now, but does that make the opinion any less valid?

 

[Illinest]

BA says this:

Robbie Grossman is causing a lot of scouting reports to be rewritten this fall. The Pirates outfield prospect, a sixth-round draft choice out of a Texas high school in 2008, has often been regarded as a tweener, with not enough power to play a corner outfield position and not enough range to play center field.

His performance in the Arizona Fall League is proving otherwise. The 22-year-old switch-hitter from Cypress, Texas, is tied for the league lead with six home runs and ranks third in OPS at 1.135, with a batting line of .381/.480/.655 after the season's first four weeks. Grossman's power surge builds on his regular season tally of 13 homers, a big jump from a combined total of nine during his first two full seasons.

It's safe to say that Grossman is doing better than projected this fall.

"He's been very consistent and I think it has exceeded my expectations," said Mesa Solar Sox hitting coach Jeff Branson, the Pirates' batting coach at Triple-A Indianapolis during the regular season. "I never imagined a guy coming out of A-ball to be this consistent day in and day out."

Grossman, who started switch-hitting during his senior year of high school, attributes the emerging power to his getting more comfortable from the left side of the plate. Thus far in his career he's consistently posted a better average from his natural righthanded side. While his average as a righthanded batter was again higher in 2011, he hit 11 of his 13 home runs from the left side and all six of his AFL bombs have been off righthanded pitchers.

"It's starting to come around," Grossman said. "I'm starting to figure out what I can do and what kind of player I am, and putting good swings on the ball."

Branson sees the significant improvement in Grossman with every at-bat. "It comes back to your approach at the plate," Branson said, "cutting your plate in half and not trying to cover both sides . . . you're keeping it in more of a smaller area.

"He's done a tremendous job of that and that's attributed to the consistency of his approach every time he goes to the plate."

In addition to the power coming out this year, Grossman also significantly improved his plate discipline. He walked 104 times at high Class A Bradenton of the Florida State League, up from 66 bases on balls earned in 2010 in his first pass at High-A ball. The total of 104 was enough to lead all minor league players in walks, edging Texas League leader Jaff Decker by one. He's continued the trend in the AFL, drawing 17 walks in 21 AFL games while facing more advanced pitching.

Grossman attributes the increase in walks to the fact that he's been swinging the bat better. "When you get a couple of hits in the first two at-bats," Grossman said, "you just don't see as many pitches to hit after that. That was the biggest difference . . . I just swung the bat better. I always had a pretty good eye."

Grossman is drawing raves for more than just his offensive improvement. Scouts are grading his outfield range as average and his arm a tick above average. While he primarily played right field during the regular season and for the Solar Sox so far this fall, Grossman is confident that he can handle all three outfield positions as he moves higher in the Pirates organization.

It's been a rough two decades for the Pirates at the major league level, with 19 straight losing seasons, but Grossman's glad to be part of a new wave of talent coming through the system. "I'm excited just to see what the future holds for us," Grossman said, "because we've got a lot of talented guys coming up. I can't wait to play with some of the guys. It's going to be a lot of fun."

Grossman has become a fan favorite at Solar Sox games, as observers have caught on to his "all out" hustling style on the field. He says that's the only way he knows to play.

"Be competitive every day and leave everything out on the field," Grossman said about how he approaches every game, "and the rest will speak for itself."

 

[Illinest]

I say -
it seems sometimes that a hitter with an advanced approach can have more trouble in the low minors where the pitchers are struggling with control.

Put another way - Grossman might know where the pitcher is trying to throw the ball better than the pitcher does.
It won't be enough for him to protect the plate and try to slap out singles. Grossman needs to be a plus defensive corner outfielder (looking promising) and he needs to continue to develop power from the left side.

 

[Darkstone42]

And I say recent developments are very encouraging.

 

[magnumo]

Big-time kudos to you, Illinest..... for recognizing Grossman's significant development BEFORE his surge in the AFL and for starting this thread.

May more Pirate prospects be blessed with more such showings.

 

[Illinest]

Presley - L
McCutchen - R
Tabata - R
Marte - R
Grossman - S

Could be a pretty good group. They're all plus defenders, all have some speed. There are 3 righties, 1 lefty and a switch-hitter. Marte is supposed to have a pretty good arm.

Only worry is power. Someone's gotta show some.
And eventually that might be Bell. The outfield is the only position that I'm excited about.

 

[thedddd]

Presley - L
McCutchen - R
Tabata - R
Marte - R
Grossman - S

Could be a pretty good group. They're all plus defenders, all have some speed. There are 3 righties, 1 lefty and a switch-hitter. Marte is supposed to have a pretty good arm.

Only worry is power. Someone's gotta show some.
And eventually that might be Bell. The outfield is the only position that I'm excited about.

Same here

and like Mags...kudo's for noticing him before. BTW...I hope he starts out in AA this year so we can go watch him play in Altoona.

 

[element1286]

Presley - L
McCutchen - R
Tabata - R
Marte - R
Grossman - S

Could be a pretty good group. They're all plus defenders, all have some speed. There are 3 righties, 1 lefty and a switch-hitter. Marte is supposed to have a pretty good arm.

Only worry is power. Someone's gotta show some.
And eventually that might be Bell. The outfield is the only position that I'm excited about.

Marte's arm is +, borderline ++ from what I've heard.

Ideally every position should look like that from the high minors up.

 

[Illinest]

Remember this thread? I wanted to talk about them both again. I don't need them to fight this time though...

Grossman first. I think we're all aware that his first two months were underwhelming. He was very bad in April. May wasn't all that much better.
Fortunately his June (which was broken by an unexplained disciplinary action about halfway through) was excellent. The OPS is up to .750.
He's still young for the level, it's his first time in AA which is traditionally seen as the most difficult jump for many players, and his peripherals are excellent. He's still walking a lot. (Walk rate is one of the better tools to use in predicting a players' future success btw.) His ISO is right about where we expected it. His BABIP is under .300 which seems low for him. In other words he's doing alright. Don't cut bait on Robbie Grossman based on a bad first month in AA.

Starling Marte is looking good. His OPS is .826 as a young player in his first exposure to AAA. He's also increased his walk rate and ISO, his K rate is not good but it's not any worse than it's been in the past. His ISO is up again. I was always concerned that he wouldn't provide enough power but I'm starting to think that he'll provide enough. I think that in a perfect world you'd want to see Marte show more consistency and a more selective eye but it's not a perfect world and Marte is not a perfect hitter.

In my opinion it's time for Marte now. I think you all know that I'm not a fan of the 'slow and steady' approach to prospect advancement. I want to challenge guys. I think a guy who's hitting .284 and has 33 xbh in half a season in AAA has shown enough competency that you can give him a harder challenge and see how he responds to it.

 

[element1286]

I'm still a fan of keeping Marte in AAA for as long as possible.

 

[Etrius24]

Marte has it all if only he could control the strike zone a little bit better... I know every so often there is a Vlad Guerrero who hits for average, power and never walks... but normally bad walk rates in the low minors that do not improve as the player advances is a bad sign...

I am okay with leaving him in AAA if the strikeout rate is improving even if only slightly...and as long as there is some small improvement in his walk rate I would leave him where he is until he shows that he has nothing left to learn at AAA...

.826 is a decent OPS for a young player first time in AAA... But what could we expect in the majors right now....700-.725 range ??..He might as well stay in AAA.. work on plate discipline and see if he can build on what he has learned... Get that OPS upto the .900 level and show he can draw walks and avoid strikeouts consistently.

One of my biggest annoyances with Pedro is that I wanted him to stay in the minors until he showed that he had nothing left to learn... He was brought up well before he had solid plate discipline (IMHO) and it has hurt him... He is finally starting to break through and live upto a little bit of his promise... but he has floundered around at the MLB level for 2 years contributing nothing...

If it is all the same I would rather Marte spend an extra half season in the minors to avoid as many growing pains at the MLB level.

 

[thecrow124]

I am for bring Marte up now, however, if he is not up by July 31, I do not want to see him until June of next year. I definiteloy do not want him to be a September call-up. The only thing that would accomplish would be to make him a Super 2 which is what we have been trying to avoid by keeping him down this year.

 

[sychmd]

what are those "starting the clock" issues / important dates.

thanks