Mark Buehrle - HOFer?

[navamind]

Dennis Martinez, 245 wins, 3.70 era, 1 WS ring - no HOF - Good pitcher with longevity

Martinez's ERA+: 106
Morris: 105

In more innings nonetheless. And yet, there's no campaigning whatsoever for Martinez. Neither are really close to being HOFers anyway.

 

[da55bums]

funny, Jerry Reuss another better than Burhle - 220 wins, 3.64 era, 1 WS Ring

 

[StanMarsh51]

funny, Jerry Reuss another better than Burhle - 220 wins, 3.64 era, 1 WS Ring

A 3.64 ERA (ERA+ at exactly 100) and 1.33 WHIP for a 1970-1980s pitcher is rather mediocre. I'd certainly say Buehrle was better.

 

[da55bums]

they are definitely in the same area, which is not Hall worthy

 

[broncosmitty]

Who the hell cares about ERA+?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Who the hell cares about ERA+?

I think it's an important stat, otherwise someone might think that a 2.95 ERA in 2000 is as good as a 2.95 ERA in 1965...ERA+ will show that the 2.95 in 2000 was much better (because it was a higher run scoring environment).

 

[navamind]

Who the hell cares about ERA+?

even if you don't care for ERA+, it's ridiculous to compare ERAs across different eras. there's a huge difference between a 3.20 ERA in Coors Field in 1995 than a 3.20 ERA at Candlestick Park in 1968.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

funny, Jerry Reuss another better than Burhle - 220 wins, 3.64 era, 1 WS Ring

Since when did those become the three categories that determine a pitcher's greatness?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Who the hell cares about ERA+?

Anyone who seeks to discuss and analyze pitchers from different eras or different leagues?

 

[broncosmitty]

Where the hell have you been Arther!?!

(I knew who cared, but there's still two of the Usual Suspects that haven't weighed in.)

 

[Howie115]

Please. There's a much bigger difference between a 3.90 ERA in the 70's/80's/early 90's and a 3.84 ERA in the midst of a hitter friendly era than you'd think.

Morris was a fine pitcher (and a workhorse, especially in his era), but come on.

I don't have the numbers, but you might want to look up how many home runs were hit in the old Tiger Stadium (which Morris pitched in) -- especially by left-handed hitters. Right field was a porch, with lazy fly balls regularly falling into the upper-deck overhang.

On the comparison to Dennis Martinez, I liked Denny, but he pitched mostly in the NL. Morris never faced another pitcher (as a batter) in the regular season for his entire career.

I completely understand the arguments against Morris as an HoF-er. Just saying that if he isn't in with 68 more wins and 146 more CG than Buehrle, than Buehrle has zero chance of consideration.

 

[navamind]

I don't have the numbers, but you might want to look up how many home runs were hit in the old Tiger Stadium (which Morris pitched in) -- especially by left-handed hitters. Right field was a porch, with lazy fly balls regularly falling into the upper-deck overhang.

On the comparison to Dennis Martinez, I liked Denny, but he pitched mostly in the NL. Morris never faced another pitcher (as a batter) in the regular season for his entire career.

I completely understand the arguments against Morris as an HoF-er. Just saying that if he isn't in with 68 more wins and 146 more CG than Buehrle, than Buehrle has zero chance of consideration.

the AL/NL point is pretty fair. but like with raw ERA, it's unfair to compare complete games/innings across eras. Morris was pitching in an era where pitchers were occasionally making 36-40+ starts a year and pitch counts weren't really a thing. Some pitchers were throwing about 15+ complete games a year. When's the last time a starting pitcher made 36+ starts? You don't see many pitchers finish with 10+ complete games too often nowadays (last pitcher was James Shields in 2011 with 11).

that's not to say that Morris wasn't an absolute workhorse in his era.

Nice to see Smarthy's back.

 

[navamind]

Where the hell have you been Arther!?!

(I knew who cared, but there's still two of the Usual Suspects that haven't weighed in.)

Arthor hasn't been on here in a while, he only posts every now and then. Would be nice to see him post some more.

 

[Howie115]

Ranking of home runs by AL stadium from 1979-1991. (Morris pitched for Detroit from 1977-1990, and for the Twins in 1991.)

[FONT=CMR12~1a]RANK STADIUM HR/GAME[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]1 Tiger Stadium (Detroit) 1.09[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]2 Kingdome (Seattle) 1.01[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]3 Memorial Stadium (Baltimore) 1.00[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]4 Metrodome (Minnesota) 0.98[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]5 New Comiskey Park 0.94[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]6 Anaheim Stadium (California) 0.94[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]7 Exhibition Stadium (Toronto) 0.93[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]8 Yankee Stadium (New York) 0.91[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]9 Fenway Park (Boston) 0.90[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]10 SkyDome (Toronto) 0.90[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]11 County Stadium (Milwaukee) 0.84[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]12 Alameda County Coliseum (Oakland) 0.83[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]13 Arlington Stadium (Texas) 0.82[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]14 Cleveland Stadium (Cleveland) 0.79[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]15 Old Comiskey Park (Chicago) 0.76[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]16 Metropolitan Stadium (Minnesota) 0.71[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]17 Royals Stadium (Kansas City) 0.64[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a](Source: http://math.sfsu.edu/schuster/homerunpaper.pdf)[/FONT]

 

[navamind]

I don't think Buehrle's a HOFer. If he had a few more good years, then maybe. But I don't think he really has a realistic shot at the HOF. He's kinda in the same boat as Pettitte IMO, granted Buehrle has more good years than Pettitte (though Pettitte's '97 and '05 years stump anything Buehrle's done). Pettitte did miss a pretty good amount of time in 2012, 2004, 2002 and 2010.

 

[broncosmitty]

Arthor hasn't been on here in a while, he only posts every now and then. Would be nice to see him post some more.

We went almost the entire baseball season without seeing him.

The Hoop needs more baseball guys. And it needs all the ones it already has.

(You know I like my math in story problem form. Skipping out on discussing the factor is skipping out on the fun stuff, IMO.)

 

[broncosmitty]

Love the Avy nava.

If that's the day Lloyd took down Tebow, your av was taken my last day as a true MI football fan.

 

[Wazmankg]

If Schilling, Mussina, and Glavine are borderline, then Buehrle has a few miles to go before he approaches the border.

This ^^ and like it or not wins still matter unless you have great stats. 200 aren't nearly enough and he doesn't.

 

[Wazmankg]

[MEDIA=twitter]515142050116030464[/MEDIA]

Wow.

I'll take marginal obscure stats that look amazing but really aren't for 1,000 Alex.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Ranking of home runs by AL stadium from 1979-1991. (Morris pitched for Detroit from 1977-1990, and for the Twins in 1991.)

[FONT=CMR12~1a]RANK STADIUM HR/GAME[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]1 Tiger Stadium (Detroit) 1.09[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]2 Kingdome (Seattle) 1.01[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]3 Memorial Stadium (Baltimore) 1.00[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]4 Metrodome (Minnesota) 0.98[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]5 New Comiskey Park 0.94[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]6 Anaheim Stadium (California) 0.94[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]7 Exhibition Stadium (Toronto) 0.93[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]8 Yankee Stadium (New York) 0.91[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]9 Fenway Park (Boston) 0.90[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]10 SkyDome (Toronto) 0.90[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]11 County Stadium (Milwaukee) 0.84[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]12 Alameda County Coliseum (Oakland) 0.83[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]13 Arlington Stadium (Texas) 0.82[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]14 Cleveland Stadium (Cleveland) 0.79[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]15 Old Comiskey Park (Chicago) 0.76[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]16 Metropolitan Stadium (Minnesota) 0.71[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a]17 Royals Stadium (Kansas City) 0.64[/FONT]

[FONT=CMR12~1a](Source: http://math.sfsu.edu/schuster/homerunpaper.pdf)[/FONT]

But isn't the pitcher's job run prevention rather than home run prevention? The two are somewhat related obviously, but if you want to make an argument that Morris' numbers look worse because of the parks he played in don't you have to look at more than just home runs? BBref's park factors show Tiger Stadium having a fairly neutral average overall park factor from 1979-1990 (99.2).