Marcum?

[Etrius24]

the fact that they were able to ink Liriano and get depth with Karstens... Impressed me.

 

[Etrius24]

But I still have to wonder... Bedard was out there and all the Astros had to do to get him was offer him a invite to spring training and a minor league contract... Surely the pirates could have bettered that offer????

 

[thecrow124]

But I still have to wonder... Bedard was out there and all the Astros had to do to get him was offer him a invite to spring training and a minor league contract... Surely the pirates could have bettered that offer????

How and why? We have 6 starters on the major league roster and as many as 9 more that are ready to step in by at latest midseason. Bedard does not and should not factor into our plans for this season.

 

[thecrow124]

2013 will be the 6th season of the Huntington regime. His strategic plan was to build from within..... with the amateur draft and international amateur signings.

So..... what does the 2013 Pirate rotation look like?

A. J. Burnett - acquired in trade
Wandy Rodriguez - acquired in trade
James McDonald - acquired in trade
Jeff Karstens - acquired in trade (subsequently signed as a free agent)

Jeff Locke - acquired in trade, or
Kyle McPherson - drafted by Littlefield

If the Pirates sign either Liriano or Marcum, that won't change the situation..... which will be that NONE of the pitchers in the rotation will have been drafted by Huntington OR signed as an international amateur free agent by Huntington. Then there's the possible return of Charlie Morton (acquired in trade). So..... the only hope for even ONE starting pitcher to emerge from Huntington's plan..... is if Gerrit Cole (drafted by Hintington) continues to perform and forces his way into the rotation by mid-season.

Hmmm..... how about the projected starting position players?

C: Russell Martin - signed as a free agent

1B: Garrett Jones - signed as a minor league free agent
1B: Gaby Sanchez - acquired in trade

2B: Neil Walker - drafted by Littlefield

3B: Pedro Alvarez - drafted by Huntington

SS: Clint Barmes - signed as a free agent

LF: Starling Marte - drafted by Littlefield

CF: Andrew McCutchen - drafted by Littlefield

RF: Travis Snider - acquired in trade
RF: Jose Tabata - acquired in trade

So..... in year 6 of the Hungtington regime..... looking at the starting rotation plus the starting position players..... there is ONE player (Pedro Alvarez) who was either drafted (or signed as an international amateur) by Huntington.

What about the bullpen and the bench?

RP - Jason Grilli - signed as a minor league free agent (subsequently signed as a free agent)
RP - Mark Melancon - acquired in trade
RP - Tony Watson - drafted by Littlefield
RP - Jared Hughes - drafted by Littlefield
RP - Chris Leroux - claimed off waivers
RP - Brian Morris - acquired in trade
RP - McPherson or Locke (see above)

Bench - Jones or Sanchez (see above)
Bench - Snider or Tabata (see above)
Bench - Michael McKenry - acquired in trade
Bench - Josh Harrison - acquired in trade

Other candidates to fill out the bench? Most likely seem to be Presley (drafted by Littlefield) or Mercer (drafted by Huntington) or DeJesus (acquired in trade) or Sands (acquired in trade).

Bottom line: So..... of the 25 players most likely to make up the roster as Huntington's 6th season opens, one (Alvarez) or two (if Mercer makes the team) will be drafted (or signed as an international amateur free agent) and developed by Huntington's regime. Hopefully, that steady stream of talent drafted and developed by Huntington will start to show up SOON!!!

I am not disagreeing with the premise of this at all, I actually like it spelled out like this, just a couple things. Wandy was acquired for 2 prospects that NH drafted and 1 that DL drafted. There are also a couple more that were acquired for NH draftees, IMO this makes them part of the results for the Huntington regime.

On a different note, Starling Marte was signed as an IFA, not drafted, but that is a minor thing.

In general I agree with the post, but I only put the blame on Huntington for not being able to realize that the talent he drafted is obviously not being developed. It isn't like the players he drafted weren't talented, they just haven't been coached up. I am not sure how to accurately explain this, but in general, with the players we have drafted we should have a lot more to show for the last 5 years and it is not due to who we have drafted, but the players they have become.

 

[magnumo]

I am not disagreeing with the premise of this at all, I actually like it spelled out like this, just a couple things. Wandy was acquired for 2 prospects that NH drafted and 1 that DL drafted. There are also a couple more that were acquired for NH draftees, IMO this makes them part of the results for the Huntington regime.

On a different note, Starling Marte was signed as an IFA, not drafted, but that is a minor thing.

In general I agree with the post, but I only put the blame on Huntington for not being able to realize that the talent he drafted is obviously not being developed. It isn't like the players he drafted weren't talented, they just haven't been coached up. I am not sure how to accurately explain this, but in general, with the players we have drafted we should have a lot more to show for the last 5 years and it is not due to who we have drafted, but the players they have become.

No disagreement from me on your point about the acquisition of players in trade for NH draftees. My primary point was the very small number of NH draftees reaching the majors for the Pirates. Yes, NH has made some good trades..... but as I have detailed in the past, he also has made some bad ones. My view is that his percentage of successful moves (in trades AND in the draft AND in the free agent market) has not been good enough.

Thanks for your correction of my error on Marte. It may be worthy of note that the usually reliable Baseball Cube got Marte wrong, as well. They list him as being signed as an undrafted free agent in 2009..... when he actually signed in early 2007.

Regarding your last paragraph..... I'm aware of your disdain for the quality of development within the Pirates' system. However, I remain unclear about the basis for that. At this point, I'm not convinced that NH's drafting isn't equally culpable.

 

[thecrow124]

No disagreement from me on your point about the acquisition of players in trade for NH draftees. My primary point was the very small number of NH draftees reaching the majors for the Pirates. Yes, NH has made some good trades..... but as I have detailed in the past, he also has made some bad ones. My view is that his percentage of successful moves (in trades AND in the draft AND in the free agent market) has not been good enough.

Thanks for your correction of my error on Marte. It may be worthy of note that the usually reliable Baseball Cube got Marte wrong, as well. They list him as being signed as an undrafted free agent in 2009..... when he actually signed in early 2007.

Regarding your last paragraph..... I'm aware of your disdain for the quality of development within the Pirates' system. However, I remain unclear about the basis for that. At this point, I'm not convinced that NH's drafting isn't equally culpable.

I agree for the most part, probably plenty of culpability all around. I tend to focus way to much on the 2009 draft. Tony Sanchez was first round talent, but if we were to go back a re-draft the 2009 first round with where the prospects stand now, he would likely not be taken in the first round. The HS pitchers taken the year were all borderline first round talent that slipped due to perceived cost, but the only one now I could even see being drafted would be Cain, and he is very borderline. ZVR and Dodson would be struggling to maintain spots on their respective college teams. That is the main reason I have such disdain for the development team. There are numerous others I could point out, but this is really the crux of it for me. I could get into Cole and Taillon, but I don't think the general consesus would agree with my beliefs on them, so I will withhold comment, but lets just say I have my doubts that either will be the stud ace starter that everyone so desperately want.

 

[sychmd]

I agree for the most part, probably plenty of culpability all around. I tend to focus way to much on the 2009 draft. Tony Sanchez was first round talent, but if we were to go back a re-draft the 2009 first round with where the prospects stand now, he would likely not be taken in the first round. The HS pitchers taken the year were all borderline first round talent that slipped due to perceived cost, but the only one now I could even see being drafted would be Cain, and he is very borderline. ZVR and Dodson would be struggling to maintain spots on their respective college teams. That is the main reason I have such disdain for the development team. There are numerous others I could point out, but this is really the crux of it for me. I could get into Cole and Taillon, but I don't think the general consesus would agree with my beliefs on them, so I will withhold comment, but lets just say I have my doubts that either will be the stud ace starter that everyone so desperately want.

i agree with hte cole taillon concerns and that is why i have advocated getting them to the bigs asap to avoid the terrible pitcher development tactics of the minors with low pitch counts, low innings, and limited pitch use, going for fastball command, etc. get them to the bigs and hopefully our top pitching coach can allow their potential to equal results instead of "what ifs"

 

[thedddd]

Did anyone else see what Marcum signed for to play for the Mets? That is a better deal than what the Pirates used for Liriano.

It will be interesting to see what Saunders signs for and if the value of those two would match Liriano.

 

[magnumo]

Did anyone else see what Marcum signed for to play for the Mets? That is a better deal than what the Pirates used for Liriano.

It will be interesting to see what Saunders signs for and if the value of those two would match Liriano.

Everything I've read indicates that Marcum signed a 1-year deal for about $4 million plus incentives. For example:

Shaun Marcum Signs With Mets for $4M, Incentives - Amazin' Avenue

NOW it's being reported (on the Pirates' page at MLB.com) that Liriano will sign a minor league deal with the Pirates, with an invite to Spring Training:

Pirates' non-roster invitees list includes familiar names | pirates.com: News

That's kind of shocking. If it's true, it seems likely that Liriano will be cheaper than Marcum. On the other hand, it remains possible that there will be some kind of "out clause," such that Liriano would be released if he doesn't make the major league team by a pre-determined date. It certainly has been a strange sequence of events. I remain interested in learning more about Liriano's broken right arm.

 

[thedddd]

Everything I've read indicates that Marcum signed a 1-year deal for about $4 million plus incentives. For example:

Shaun Marcum Signs With Mets for $4M, Incentives - Amazin' Avenue

NOW it's being reported (on the Pirates' page at MLB.com) that Liriano will sign a minor league deal with the Pirates, with an invite to Spring Training:

Pirates' non-roster invitees list includes familiar names | pirates.com: News

That's kind of shocking. If it's true, it seems likely that Liriano will be cheaper than Marcum. On the other hand, it remains possible that there will be some kind of "out clause," such that Liriano would be released if he doesn't make the major league team by a pre-determined date. It certainly has been a strange sequence of events. I remain interested in learning more about Liriano's broken right arm.

Yeah that is odd. If that is the case then the Pirates are going to make out on the deal unless the Money will be the same eventually when ready to play?

 

[Etrius24]

Crow

The Bedard mention was merely a depth and insurance option..It was a very low risk, inexpensive move to make... If he does not throw great in the spring and look like he did several years ago you leave him in the minors or release him... It costs basically nothing... If by some chance he is sharp, you ride him like a horse until he dies and or the arm falls off... and then you discard him... again it costs next to nothing...

I know with Liriano and Karstens there is a glut of pitching in the rotation right now... but you can almost never have too much pitching... Bedard was basically free... Even if he gave you 2 good months in the bigs before the wheels fell off... It would be a boost they could use on the cheap.

 

[magnumo]

Crow

The Bedard mention was merely a depth and insurance option..It was a very low risk, inexpensive move to make... If he does not throw great in the spring and look like he did several years ago you leave him in the minors or release him... It costs basically nothing... If by some chance he is sharp, you ride him like a horse until he dies and or the arm falls off... and then you discard him... again it costs next to nothing...

I know with Liriano and Karstens there is a glut of pitching in the rotation right now... but you can almost never have too much pitching... Bedard was basically free... Even if he gave you 2 good months in the bigs before the wheels fell off... It would be a boost they could use on the cheap.

Ooops..... I just read an Etrius post by mistake. I gotta do better. The Pirates re-signing Bedard (even to a minor league contract) makes absolutely no sense.

- Sign Bedard AGAIN? Nope. Been there, done that.

- The Pirates cut a supposedly-healthy Bedard last season in order to give starting opportunities to Locke and McPherson, who showed promise and remain in the queue.

- The Pirates have enough starting pitching candidates (with higher upside than Bedard) to fill out the rotations in both Pittsburgh and Indianapolis with several guys left over. It makes no sense to give Bedard starts, even at triple-A, ahead of any of those guys.

- The absolute best that Bedard could do would be #8 in the queue, behind Burnett, Rodriguez, McDonald, Liriano, Karstens, Locke, and McPherson. Even if Liriano and McPherson aren't healthy enough to start the season, that still leaves Bedard at #6 at best.

- Given the situation, it seems highly unlikely that Bedard would even consider re-signing with Pittsburgh. He will have a much better opportunity to pitch in the majors for Houston..... IF he doesn't get hurt again.

- Liriano is this year's Bedard.

No one values pitching and starting pitching depth more than I do, but there was absolutely no chance (zero, zip, nada) that the Pirates would re-sign Eric Bedard for the 2013 season..... and absolutely no reason why they should even have considered it.

 

[steelparrot]

I dont think we need any more rotation depth.

We have a glut of corner outfielders and starting pitching. We just need some of em to step it up.

We arent going to upgrade SS without developing him or paying 15 mill a year, so thats out the window.

Any left over cash should go to the bullpen imo.