Marcum?

[Burns80y]

I see the Pirates are now linked to Marcum. So the question is what is he worth? I would say somewhere in the 8-9 million per year range. His fastball velocity is down and he missed 2 months last summer with elbow tightness. If it wasn't for that i think he'd be worth more.

So Marcum at 2/17 or Liriano 2/14?

 

[Illinest]

Yes marcum. Yeeeeees.

Sign marcum and i'll be a lot happier about the offseason.

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

I liked Marcum alot prior to his injuries. His fastball velocity is way down now, from what I have read?

Can he even consistently hit 90mph with his fastball any longer?

More of a control, pitch to spots type pitcher now? Am I wrong?

I would be a bit skeptical. Not entirely against the move if it would happen, just a bit worried.

Burgh

 

[Burns80y]

Well they just signed Karstens. So I am guessing marcum and liriano are out?

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

Bill Brink of the PG is reporting, that Karstens deal with the Bucs is a 1yr 2.5M deal.

If those terms are correct? I think this is an outstanding signing by the Pirates & a great job done by Neal Huntington in this case.

It is being reported also, by Bucs Dugout, that the Pirates still have space in the budget.

I am hoping that now that we have Karstens in the fold, that maybe we can rework the terms of Liriano's deal & still possibly get him into a Pirates uniform as well?

Either Liriano or Marcum would work for me now.

If we can still get one of these two? Now, along with Karstens, combined with what we have already done this offseason. I would call this winter a success for the Pirates.

Nice job by Neal here. Keep it up. More can still be done for this team.

Burgh

 

[thedddd]

Glad to hear Karstens is back and that price is very good.

If they still have Liriano or get Marcum their rotation will look a lot better starting the season.

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

I feel the same way D. I feel great about this move. A very nice surprise tonight, to say the least.

Who would have thunk it. The Pirates Front Office doing some Actual, Legitimate, Good Work in the offseason! Who Knew! LOL!

I HOPE, that we can now rework Liriano's deal & get him on this team as well.

If, the Pirates can get that done? This has the look of a much improved rotation.

A rotation, that for the first time in many a yr, may have answers to the pitching questions, in both the SP & RP\Pen.

Just my opinion.

Burgh

 

[steelparrot]

5 mill to play with during the season wouldnt be a bad thing.

IF we sign Liriano, this will be the best rotation we have had in 20 years.

 

[steelparrot]

To late to edit

Meant to say even if we dont sign Liriano.

July 1
Burnett
Rodriguez
Cole
McDonald
Karstens

Taillon a year from joining the rotation.

 

[Darkstone42]

I would like one of Liriano or Marcum so that we don't have all of our eggs in the J-Mac basket. I think Marcum's the "safer" signing, and Liriano the riskier. In any case, Burnett and Rodriguez won't be lights-out, but they and Karstens will at least be steady. J-Mac can be lights out or completely useless. The same would be true of Liriano. Marcum would fall into the same category as Burnett, Rodriguez, and Karstens if he were brought in.

It's still not a very good rotation, but it's one that can consistently at least keep you within striking distance every game. Having Cole jump in as a true ace, though, would be a massive boost, although I don't think he's ready for that just yet.

 

[thecrow124]

I don't see the point in all of these signings. Actually, I personally think Karstens is back here on a bullpen contract. However, back to my original point, what is the point of building a farm system if you aren't going to use it? NH won't trade any prospects to help the major league club, but he won't bring them up and let them play either.
This will be Justin Wilson's third run through AAA, he hasn't gained an ounce of control since he was drafted, so what you see is what you have. IMO he is pretty darned good, I don't like the high walk totals either, but crap he only gives up 2 hits per 3 innings. Locke also has nothing left to learn in the minors. McPherson could possibly use a little more time, and Cole has never really had much to work on since about his 5th start in Bradenton.
I am not saying any of those 4 are ready to step in and set the world on fire, but Wilson is probably a pretty good impersonation of Liriano, McPherson and Locke could both fill out the back of the rotation as well as Karstens or Marcum, and probably as well as McDonald. Cole could probably give us a season like Burnett, but maybe not this year.
I understand the need for depth, and may end up eating my words here, but when you have guys in the minors that either aren't learning anything or have shown to have little else to learn in the minors it is time to give them a shot. I will go so far as to say that no matter what happens with the last spot in the rotation, our AAA rotation is more talented and would likely only cost us a couple wins over the course of the season at the major league level.

 

[HammerDown]

As a Padres fan, I'm baffled when they depart from logic and make trades and free agent signings that aren't consistent with a strategy that would allow a small-market team to compete over the long run.

 

[Darkstone42]

I think the Pirates are mostly just looking to get something closer to a "sure thing" in the rotation since it is completely filled with question marks. Burnett's not young, and he tailed off last year. Wandy's been regressing for a few years. J-Mac has a Jekyll and Hyde character to his pitching. Cole, Locke, McPherson, and Wilson are all unproven at the Major League level.

I think the front office really just believes they need to give themselves as many chances as possible at having another steady guy in the rotation.

 

[magnumo]

Last few posts created a sequence of thoughts.....

2013 will be the 6th season of the Huntington regime. His strategic plan was to build from within..... with the amateur draft and international amateur signings.

So..... what does the 2013 Pirate rotation look like?

A. J. Burnett - acquired in trade
Wandy Rodriguez - acquired in trade
James McDonald - acquired in trade
Jeff Karstens - acquired in trade (subsequently signed as a free agent)

Jeff Locke - acquired in trade, or
Kyle McPherson - drafted by Littlefield

If the Pirates sign either Liriano or Marcum, that won't change the situation..... which will be that NONE of the pitchers in the rotation will have been drafted by Huntington OR signed as an international amateur free agent by Huntington. Then there's the possible return of Charlie Morton (acquired in trade). So..... the only hope for even ONE starting pitcher to emerge from Huntington's plan..... is if Gerrit Cole (drafted by Hintington) continues to perform and forces his way into the rotation by mid-season.

Hmmm..... how about the projected starting position players?

C: Russell Martin - signed as a free agent

1B: Garrett Jones - signed as a minor league free agent
1B: Gaby Sanchez - acquired in trade

2B: Neil Walker - drafted by Littlefield

3B: Pedro Alvarez - drafted by Huntington

SS: Clint Barmes - signed as a free agent

LF: Starling Marte - drafted by Littlefield

CF: Andrew McCutchen - drafted by Littlefield

RF: Travis Snider - acquired in trade
RF: Jose Tabata - acquired in trade

So..... in year 6 of the Hungtington regime..... looking at the starting rotation plus the starting position players..... there is ONE player (Pedro Alvarez) who was either drafted (or signed as an international amateur) by Huntington.

What about the bullpen and the bench?

RP - Jason Grilli - signed as a minor league free agent (subsequently signed as a free agent)
RP - Mark Melancon - acquired in trade
RP - Tony Watson - drafted by Littlefield
RP - Jared Hughes - drafted by Littlefield
RP - Chris Leroux - claimed off waivers
RP - Brian Morris - acquired in trade
RP - McPherson or Locke (see above)

Bench - Jones or Sanchez (see above)
Bench - Snider or Tabata (see above)
Bench - Michael McKenry - acquired in trade
Bench - Josh Harrison - acquired in trade

Other candidates to fill out the bench? Most likely seem to be Presley (drafted by Littlefield) or Mercer (drafted by Huntington) or DeJesus (acquired in trade) or Sands (acquired in trade).

Bottom line: So..... of the 25 players most likely to make up the roster as Huntington's 6th season opens, one (Alvarez) or two (if Mercer makes the team) will be drafted (or signed as an international amateur free agent) and developed by Huntington's regime. Hopefully, that steady stream of talent drafted and developed by Huntington will start to show up SOON!!!

 

[evolver115]

Good post Magnumo.

Seeing it all spelled out like that sure does put the inept drafting by Huntington in perspective.

 

[sychmd]

2013 will be the 6th season of the Huntington regime. His strategic plan was to build from within..... with the amateur draft and international amateur signings.

So..... what does the 2013 Pirate rotation look like?

A. J. Burnett - acquired in trade
Wandy Rodriguez - acquired in trade
James McDonald - acquired in trade
Jeff Karstens - acquired in trade (subsequently signed as a free agent)

Jeff Locke - acquired in trade, or
Kyle McPherson - drafted by Littlefield

If the Pirates sign either Liriano or Marcum, that won't change the situation..... which will be that NONE of the pitchers in the rotation will have been drafted by Huntington OR signed as an international amateur free agent by Huntington. Then there's the possible return of Charlie Morton (acquired in trade). So..... the only hope for even ONE starting pitcher to emerge from Huntington's plan..... is if Gerrit Cole (drafted by Hintington) continues to perform and forces his way into the rotation by mid-season.

Hmmm..... how about the projected starting position players?

C: Russell Martin - signed as a free agent

1B: Garrett Jones - signed as a minor league free agent
1B: Gaby Sanchez - acquired in trade

2B: Neil Walker - drafted by Littlefield

3B: Pedro Alvarez - drafted by Huntington

SS: Clint Barmes - signed as a free agent

LF: Starling Marte - drafted by Littlefield

CF: Andrew McCutchen - drafted by Littlefield

RF: Travis Snider - acquired in trade
RF: Jose Tabata - acquired in trade

So..... in year 6 of the Hungtington regime..... looking at the starting rotation plus the starting position players..... there is ONE player (Pedro Alvarez) who was either drafted (or signed as an international amateur) by Huntington.

What about the bullpen and the bench?

RP - Jason Grilli - signed as a minor league free agent (subsequently signed as a free agent)
RP - Mark Melancon - acquired in trade
RP - Tony Watson - drafted by Littlefield
RP - Jared Hughes - drafted by Littlefield
RP - Chris Leroux - claimed off waivers
RP - Brian Morris - acquired in trade
RP - McPherson or Locke (see above)

Bench - Jones or Sanchez (see above)
Bench - Snider or Tabata (see above)
Bench - Michael McKenry - acquired in trade
Bench - Josh Harrison - acquired in trade

Other candidates to fill out the bench? Most likely seem to be Presley (drafted by Littlefield) or Mercer (drafted by Huntington) or DeJesus (acquired in trade) or Sands (acquired in trade).

Bottom line: So..... of the 25 players most likely to make up the roster as Huntington's 6th season opens, one (Alvarez) or two (if Mercer makes the team) will be drafted (or signed as an international amateur free agent) and developed by Huntington's regime. Hopefully, that steady stream of talent drafted and developed by Huntington will start to show up SOON!!!

hey mags,
nice research. missed that over the last couple months.
i am not a huntington fan or basher, so here are my comments.

with regards to the building through the draft and international signings, this strategy is certainly a sound start. given that most drafting and signing is for the best available talent and not position specific acquisitions, this strategy can lead to several secondary options:
1. trade some drafted/international talent to fill more specific position needs or 'we need now at the major league level' needs
2. save money by having more "cheap" or "under control" contracts to be able to afford key free agent signings.
3. be patient with the young draftees and internationals and allow them to come through the system and play.

so seeing a roster of people that he didnt draft doesnt bother me.

but, i want to see, are the people he is drafting becoming viable pieces in our overall puzzle or not. if we trade 3 of his drafted players to get verlander, i dont have a problem and say his drafting worked.

if his drafted players are doing nothing and getting us back zero in return, when compared to what other teams drafts produce, then get rid of him.

the most important element: player scouting and development.
this is where i am most skeptical. i am not convinced we know how to evaluate talent that is out there to be drafted, assess our own talent to know who we can sell hi on because they hit there ceiling.
most importantly, are we teaching the techniques and skills in the right way that leads to lots of growth in the people who become bucs, regardless of the way they got on our team.
i dont think we scout well and very skeptical of this development process, especially with pitchers.

looking forward to being in first place on opening day!

 

[Darkstone42]

The jury is out for me on scouting because I think our development is just so bad that even the best scouts would struggle to produce Major League talent for us. Even bad scouts get it right sometimes, but bad development will hide those few victories. A good scouting team will look bad if the player development is poor.

Perhaps we should hire a scout to scout out player development personnel for our organization...

 

[thecrow124]

I think the Pirates are mostly just looking to get something closer to a "sure thing" in the rotation since it is completely filled with question marks. Burnett's not young, and he tailed off last year. Wandy's been regressing for a few years. J-Mac has a Jekyll and Hyde character to his pitching. Cole, Locke, McPherson, and Wilson are all unproven at the Major League level.

I think the front office really just believes they need to give themselves as many chances as possible at having another steady guy in the rotation.

I would love to agree with this but the only sure thing we will see from Karstens is an injury.

 

[thedddd]

The rotation is no where near perfect but the thought of having Karstens available to start if needed is much better than Jeanmar Gomez, Leroux, Mazzaro or Stewart if an injury or if one of the prospects just suck.

 

[Etrius24]

I was still holding out hope that somehow they could bring Liriano to terms ...