Let's buy out Marleau's contract!

[rares]

That article lost me when it decided to use Pavelski as a control group for consistency. LOL

I'm pretty sure they did that because (a lot of) morons use him as the measuring stick for clutch performance... because, you know, he scored a couple clutch playoff goals at some point.

Also, please go ahead list current roster Sharks players who you consider to be more clutch/consistent than Marleau, overall. I'd like to have a good laugh over it.

 

[sjrules99]

So now consistancy is .5ppg per series and you don't care to look at enough to make any much of a claim at all one way or the other. Marleau even meets your stupid criteria in 2009 & 2010.

Conclusion:

You're full of shit when it comes to breakdowns like these.

I said that .5 PPG or less is a bad series for a top liner. That was my criteria, and I think it's about right. if a top line player cant put up better than half a point per game, that's unacceptable. patty has had at least one unacceptable series every single year. That's all I was saying.

What would you classify as a bad series statistically? To me, putting up 53 pts and -15 over an 82 game pace over the last 6 years of PO's is pretty terrible for a guy making basically 7M. Whether you want to call it inconsistent or just plain crappy is fine with me, but the guy has the reputation for a reason and the stats absolutely back it up.

 

[sjrules99]

I'm pretty sure they did that because (a lot of) morons use him as the measuring stick for clutch performance... because, you know, he scored a couple clutch playoff goals at some point.

Also, please go ahead list current roster Sharks players who you consider to be more clutch/consistent than Marleau, overall. I'd like to have a good laugh over it.

Pavs cannot be the basis for comparison. he makes 3M less and is 6 years younger. Neither can clowe, who makes 3.5M less. Neither can havlat who has been on the team for one year, and you obviously cant use any other guys as comparisons either since comparing a 3rd liner to patty is obviously irrelevant.

Jumbo is the only other comparison that's fair, as I said before. Im not arguing that jumbo is the model of consisitency, as we all know he isnt. he has a great reputation for choking around the league than patty, and again, rather rightfully so. He too has failed to lead a team to a cup finals, let alone win. Patty is not alone in his inconsistency. However, to argue that he is not inconsistent at all implies that he is consistantly crappy, because it is impossible to argue that he is consistently good looking at the body of his work or breaking it down series by series.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Since we have pretty different ideas about what makes a player valuable, why don't you just take your pick. If it seems skewed or cherry picked to me I'll let you know. Might want to start with SJ players and then move on to other players who have played in a similar amount of playoff games/series as Marleau has.

BTW, I'm not defending the article in any way. I'm just curious who these guys are who up to your standards in every playoff series.

Simply comparing basic players stats (goals, assists, points) doesn't mean anything if you don't further break it down and filter the comparibles by the role that player has within that line. Comparing a player who's an F1 or F2, meaning their primary job is as a 1st or 2nd forechecker, to one that's an F3, 3rd man high and primary defensive presence amoung the forward group, is very misleading. On average F1 and F2 forwards garner 25-50% more and higer quality scoring chances than an F3 at even strength. Further that descrepency for Marleau by the fact Thornton heavily favors his right wings, especially right handed shooting right wings.

 

[abaskin18]

I said that .5 PPG or less is a bad series for a top liner. That was my criteria, and I think it's about right. if a top line player cant put up better than half a point per game, that's unacceptable. patty has had at least one unacceptable series every single year. That's all I was saying.

What would you classify as a bad series statistically? To me, putting up 53 pts and -15 over an 82 game pace over the last 6 years of PO's is pretty terrible for a guy making basically 7M. Whether you want to call it inconsistent or just plain crappy is fine with me, but the guy has the reputation for a reason and the stats absolutely back it up.

Sorry, .66 ppg in a series is acceptable and .5 isn't up to snuff? If Marleau had one more assist in 3 series over the last 6 years he'd be considered a consistent player? He'd meet that criteria, according to you.

That absolutely backs up JACK SQUAT. Inconsistent is just another way to keep the venom up. Since many of the down series are surrounded by near ppg performances people would sound like a real jackasses if they just called him plain crappy.

And, since you asked, I consider a series lost as a bad one statistically for any player.

 

[sjrules99]

So, if the comparison is limited to Jumbo vs. Patty, then one could argue they both are inconsistent. However, if the comparison is broadened to similar salaries, or what not, then there are many many players with far better PO records over the last 6 years than patty and many players who have put it together consistently for an entire PO year, whether that year ends in a cup or not, they at least play consistently well.

All the article proves is that over the course of the season, patty scores at an expected rate for a player who scores 30 goals. That's it.

It does not factor in anything else like the timing of the streaks (expected or otherwise), the PO's, or the total amount of goals itself over the course of the year. In each of those, patty falls well short. His streaks come often at very bad times for the team, his PO work is spotty at best, and his total goals (30) is not impressive for a 7M player (though to his credit the prior 3 years were much higher). this year, he ranked T-25th in goals and T-40th in pts among forwards despite being the 14th highest paid forward in the league. So, he was theoretically consistent in his underperformance.

 

[abaskin18]

Simply comparing basic players stats (goals, assists, points) doesn't mean anything if you don't further break it down and filter the comparibles by the role that player has within that line. Comparing a player who's an F1 or F2, meaning their primary job is as a 1st or 2nd forechecker, to one that's an F3, 3rd man high and primary defensive presence amoung the forward group, is very misleading. On average F1 and F2 forwards garner 25-50% more and higer quality scoring chances than an F3 at even strength. Further that descrepency for Marleau by the fact Thornton heavily favors his right wings, especially right handed shooting right wings.

Agreed. It would be interesting to see a larger sample comparison to see if he really is more inconsistent statistically than other comparable players in a similar role with their respective teams.

 

[Cbrower91]

So, if the comparison is limited to Jumbo vs. Patty, then one could argue they both are inconsistent. However, if the comparison is broadened to similar salaries, or what not, then there are many many players with far better PO records over the last 6 years than patty and many players who have put it together consistently for an entire PO year, whether that year ends in a cup or not, they at least play consistently well.

All the article proves is that over the course of the season, patty scores at an expected rate for a player who scores 30 goals. That's it.

It does not factor in anything else like the timing of the streaks (expected or otherwise), the PO's, or the total amount of goals itself over the course of the year. In each of those, patty falls well short. His streaks come often at very bad times for the team, his PO work is spotty at best, and his total goals (30) is not impressive for a 7M player (though to his credit the prior 3 years were much higher). this year, he ranked T-25th in goals and T-40th in pts among forwards despite being the 14th highest paid forward in the league. So, he was theoretically consistent in his underperformance.

Same could be said about the Clowe and Pavelski shit shows when they go on slumps, people always bitch about forward depth on this team and it starts with the inconsistency in the supporting cast of Clowe and Pavelskis streaky output, when those 2 go ice cold like the always seem to do for 3 weeks to a month at a time 2 to 3 times a season it effects the top and bottom of the line ups. Its maginified by the problem youve eluded to for years and thats a lack of scoring on the bottom half of the line up.

Bottom line if the supporting cast was stronger the numbers go up, which is still fairly irrellevant when theres more to the game then that

 

[sjrules99]

Sorry, .66 ppg in a series is acceptable and .5 isn't up to snuff? If Marleau had one more assist in 3 series over the last 6 years he'd be considered a consistent player? He'd meet that criteria, according to you.

That absolutely backs up JACK SQUAT. Inconsistent is just another way to keep the venom up. Since many of the down series are surrounded by near ppg performances people would sound like a real jackasses if they just called him plain crappy.

And, since you asked, I consider a series lost as a bad one statistically for any player.

OK, you win. I was just trying to draw the line somewhere. Obviously, as Cmon pointed out, Goals and assists alone also dont tell a sufficient story and that's obviously the case.

That said, yes, one more assist might have meant one more goal, which might have meant one more win, and we all know that in a tight series, one win is huge. Im not saying that one point would made the difference in a series, but it's not too far fetched to say that in some series one key goal at the right time can absolutely change the outcome of the series.

Lastly, if a lost series means every player played badly, then that would mean that every year, every teams' players are bad except of the cup winner. That's pretty rough to great players on crappy teams. I would argue Iggy has been a major victim of this among many other players. When a guy puts up 8 or 9 pts and big plus in a series and they still lose cuz the other three lines are awful, it's hard to blame the good ones. However, if you wanna make every lost series into the fault of the entire team no matter how any individual plays, then you end up throwing a whole lot of great performers under the bus. he'll, it means even gretzky and lemieux sucked most of their PO years since most of the time, they didnt win the cup.

 

[rares]

I think some people may be missing the main point of the article (and others like it, defending Marleau).

The main point is, there is nobody else on the team who you can compare Marleau to. Overall, year after year, he's pretty much as productive as any other player and better than most other players.

If you want to get into the whole "well, for $7M, I expect _____ and _____ and _____" and "well, he should produce that for what he's paid" arguments, those are BS to me.

He's getting paid what he's worth and he produces enough for what he gets paid. Deal with it. I know you can't, though.

 

[TheRobotDevil]

Marleau for Zubrus and Harrold?

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Marleau for Zubrus and Harrold?

Sharks counter with an autographed #69 Andrew Desjardins sweater and nudie pictures of Marleau's wife for Adam Henrique.

 

[sjrules99]

I think some people may be missing the main point of the article (and others like it, defending Marleau).

The main point is, there is nobody else on the team who you can compare Marleau to. Overall, year after year, he's pretty much as productive as any other player and better than most other players.

If you want to get into the whole "well, for $7M, I expect _____ and _____ and _____" and "well, he should produce that for what he's paid" arguments, those are BS to me.

He's getting paid what he's worth and he produces enough for what he gets paid. Deal with it. I know you can't, though.

right you are... here we differ. its not bs to expect more from higher paid players. Thats the whole reason they get paid. Now, one could say it's not actually patty's fault that he gets overpaid as the blame for that one would lie with dougie. That's a valid argument. Perhaps much of the blame falls on him because dougie set him up to be something he isnt. By giving him the franchise label in the form of his salary and the rhetoric DW uses, Dougie has painted him as some sort of leader who should be a top producer. Perhaps, what patty is is a glorified, overpaid 2nd liner. In this regard, he is playing exactly as he should.

However, it's inevitable that with a salary in the top 15, the production can be expected to match both in the regular season and in the PO's. And, until patty puts together a consistent PO year when he is a positive factor in every series, he will never shake the label he has earned.

 

[filosofy29]

Simply comparing basic players stats (goals, assists, points) doesn't mean anything if you don't further break it down and filter the comparibles by the role that player has within that line. Comparing a player who's an F1 or F2, meaning their primary job is as a 1st or 2nd forechecker, to one that's an F3, 3rd man high and primary defensive presence amoung the forward group, is very misleading. On average F1 and F2 forwards garner 25-50% more and higer quality scoring chances than an F3 at even strength. Further that descrepency for Marleau by the fact Thornton heavily favors his right wings, especially right handed shooting right wings.

This ^. Plus, it's hard to compare PPG averages against different teams and different conferences. I like Spezza, but he was playing in a lot of playoff series against a weak, weak EC while the WC was tough as hell. In the EC, there were only 4 legit teams that would have made it in the WC.

Plus, even though they score decently on the same line, I don't think Thornton and Marleau's games compliment each other very well. One likes to cycle behind the net or at the end boards and slow the pace of the game down while one likes to play with speed and quick passing/movement.

I don't see how this helps any arguments anyway because the entire Sharks team seems to go into a funk with these two leading the way once the playoffs start. Their PP is the main problem as you are no longer playing against the also-rans of the league. These teams usually have good defenses and they also have a week to prepare for your PP. The Sharks PP has very little movement with zero traffic in front of the net. It's basically wait until Joe finds the perfect seam pass and go for the slam dunk or work something off of a cycle. Both of those styles of PP's are super easy to defend. Like Larry Robinson already said, don't give good players time and space. Thornton loves to have the puck on the end boards and he keeps the PP stagnant. Well, in order to find the perfect pass, it might take some time.....he doesn't get much of it in the playoffs. Obviously, PPG's are going to take a downward spiral if the PP doesn't click at all in the PO's. Plus, what's more important in the PO's, G's or A's? I'd rather have a guy with 2G-0A than a guy with 0G-3A. Too tough to gauge accurately in my humble opinion. Plus, I believe 3 of Thornton's points in the St. Louis series came when the game was already WAY decided.

That's why you ALL should agree with me and say that it isn't so much the lack of scoring as much as it is the horrible lack of intagibles that both bring. (Kidding guys, kidding.....I mean, I still believe it, but you shouldn't trust my word)

 

[abaskin18]

That's why you ALL should agree with me and say that it isn't so much the lack of scoring as much as it is the horrible lack of intagibles that both bring. (Kidding guys, kidding.....I mean, I still believe it, but you shouldn't trust my word)

He said I won, jerk. :bump2:

 

[sjrules99]

[/B]

right you are... here we differ. its not bs to expect more from higher paid players. Thats the whole reason they get paid. Now, one could say it's not actually patty's fault that he gets overpaid as the blame for that one would lie with dougie. That's a valid argument. Perhaps much of the blame falls on him because dougie set him up to be something he isnt. By giving him the franchise label in the form of his salary and the rhetoric DW uses, Dougie has painted him as some sort of leader who should be a top producer. Perhaps, what patty is is a glorified, overpaid 2nd liner. In this regard, he is playing exactly as he should.

However, it's inevitable that with a salary in the top 15, the production can be expected to match both in the regular season and in the PO's. And, until patty puts together a consistent PO year when he is a positive factor in every series, he will never shake the label he has earned.

I should add in his defense that the sharks have basically never had a legit real third line to take the pressure off the top 6. No one would complain about patty if the other two lines scored consistently too. However, since they have never had the depth of scoring like that, the magnifying glass naturally turns to the big money top line. This is one of the main reason why I and many others on the board, are so pissed about the current lack of a 3rd line. We all know that patty/Jumbo arent kane/toews, sid/gino, dats/zetts, or even carter/richards. We know they are incapable of carrying a team to a cup like those others. That's why dougie needs a very good third line...

 

[filosofy29]

Marleau for Zubrus and Harrold?

Marleau and Murray for Zubrus, Clarkson and Greene and you've got a deal.

 

[rares]

[/B]

right you are... here we differ. its not bs to expect more from higher paid players. Thats the whole reason they get paid. Now, one could say it's not actually patty's fault that he gets overpaid as the blame for that one would lie with dougie. That's a valid argument. Perhaps much of the blame falls on him because dougie set him up to be something he isnt. By giving him the franchise label in the form of his salary and the rhetoric DW uses, Dougie has painted him as some sort of leader who should be a top producer. Perhaps, what patty is is a glorified, overpaid 2nd liner. In this regard, he is playing exactly as he should.

However, it's inevitable that with a salary in the top 15, the production can be expected to match both in the regular season and in the PO's. And, until patty puts together a consistent PO year when he is a positive factor in every series, he will never shake the label he has earned.

I have big, humongous problems with "points per salary $" stats so I have no interest in "going there" but I'm pretty sure his production is just fine when compared to the people getting paid what he gets paid.

He gets paid what the market for people like him dictates. If the Sharks weren't paying him $6+M, about half the other teams in the league would. It's the going rate for that type of consistent production even though you guys don't like it to be.

EDIT: Also, like you added, it's no secret that the Sharks are 1-2 line team. It's easy matchups for teams so he should get even more credit for what he does considering he does it against (rested) top D all the time.

 

[sjrules99]

I was just thinking that it would sure be interesting to see what would happen if patty was dealt as is the rumor like basically every year. Really, that's the only way to resolve any debates about him, because if he was dealt and they went on to lose in the first round again, then that would give creedence to an argument that he is not at fault. But, if they went far or ultimately won a cup, it would help prove otherwise. It would be nice to see the jumbo/patty pair ultimately vindicated with a cup, but if that doesnt happen it would be nice to see a new day dawn in SJ without patty after so much frustration under his term.

 

[abaskin18]

I was just thinking that it would sure be interesting to see what would happen if patty was dealt as is the rumor like basically every year. Really, that's the only way to resolve any debates about him, because if he was dealt and they went on to lose in the first round again, then that would give creedence to an argument that he is not at fault. But, if they went far or ultimately won a cup, it would help prove otherwise. It would be nice to see the jumbo/patty pair ultimately vindicated with a cup, but if that doesnt happen it would be nice to see a new day dawn in SJ without patty after so much frustration under his term.

It wouldn't resolve shit. What if the new team around him was good...or bad? What is "going far"? Conference finals? What is the end all be all metric to determine his performance as good or bad?

Haters gonna hate, defenders are gonna defend. Why anyone thinks they can prove anything in this debate is beyond me. And before anyone says I'm trying to prove he is consistent (or even defending him at all), look again.