Let's buy out Marleau's contract!

[rares]

Expectation vs. Reality: A look at an inaccurate label Patrick Marleau has carried his entire career - Fear The Fin

Did Kurz really say that?

I stopped following him on twitter because he's a fucking clueless clown and knows nothing about hockey but he seriously suggested that?

EDIT: Also, that is a pretty great article for all you Marleau haters to read, IMO.

 

[Likewall32]

Expectation vs. Reality: A look at an inaccurate label Patrick Marleau has carried his entire career - Fear The Fin

Did Kurz really say that?

I stopped following him on twitter because he's a fucking clueless clown and knows nothing about hockey but he seriously suggested that?

EDIT: Also, that is a pretty great article for all you Marleau haters to read, IMO.

Pavelski isnt paid 6.9 mil a year to be the top player on the team. Comparing a 1st liner with a 2nd/3rd tweener is pretty stupid basis to prove a point of consistancy. Pavelski also isnt nearly as gifted as Marleau and still puts up the same numbers

 

[rares]

OK, it might be a good article for all Marleau haters not named Likewall32 since he completely misses the point...

 

[bdave]

does anyone think robinson can fix marleau? if he is a no non sense kind of guy I couldn't see marleau getting away with the laziness again.

 

[rares]

I give up...

 

[filosofy29]

Not a bad article. It brings up some fair points in defense of Marleau's perceived "lack" of scoring/consistency. I don't have a problem with that, there have been series, where he's been really good (i.e. - Chicago) and series where he's been really bad (i.e. - Blues) when it comes to scoring. All in all, I've never really been critical of his lack of scoring.

I don't think you're singling me out with this particular article, as I haven't been as ardent of Marleau basher as most on here. That said, I can't handle Marleau AND Thornton anymore because they are the spoken or unspoken leaders of this team. They take up a ton of cap space and they don't offer ANY intangibles. If they're scoring, the Sharks win, if they're not, they lose. They don't inspire, they don't lead by example, they don't hit/play physical, and they don't block shots (not asking to be a league leader, but every once in awhile in an important game). TANGENT ALERT: Hell, I've seen Thornton seemingly get kicked out of important d-zone draws almost on purpose (probably close to 7 times last year). Drew says it's because he's trying to get an advantage, knowing that if he cheats, he's got a 2nd good centerman out there with him.....I can agree to a certain extent on a PP in the offensive zone, but I want my best centerman to take that draw when you're in the d-zone and you need a clear. - END TANGENT.

In my humble opinion, you can't win when you have two ho-hum type players leading your team and taking up that much cap space. Nothing against either of them, if they had an opposite side of the coin on the team like an Owen Nolan, it might work out great. While a good article, overall, it doesn't change my opinion one bit on Marleau. I used to defend him from most of the idiocy that came his way, but I'm not mad at him for the same reasons as most on here.

EDIT: As for buying out Marleau's contract.....the worst idea I've heard of. Kurz might be the most useless "insider" I've ever seen. I don't even know what he does.

 

[23sharks]

Expectation vs. Reality: A look at an inaccurate label Patrick Marleau has carried his entire career - Fear The Fin

Did Kurz really say that?

I stopped following him on twitter because he's a fucking clueless clown and knows nothing about hockey but he seriously suggested that?

EDIT: Also, that is a pretty great article for all you Marleau haters to read, IMO.

Like you said Rares, he is a clueless fucking clown. How did this guy get a job???!!!
My daughter watches all the games with me and we laugh about what a joke this guy is. He looks like a deer in the headlights.

 

[sjrules99]

Buying him out is indeed dumb, no matter how much you hate the guy. The reason is because he is still worth more than 2/3 of his salary (roughly 4.6M). He is worth 5-6M, just not 7. So, buying out would be a foolish option. A trade on the other hand...

The article also misses some key points. Over the course of a season, he goes on stretches similar to other players, but there are a few key factors not considered.

1. He only scores 30 or so per year. That's pretty low for someone of his salary. So, his streaks are expected of someone who scores at that rather low number relative to salary.

2. The timing of the streak is key. Over the course of the season, he may be standard, but if the biggest stretch happens to come in the PO's, or happens to come down the stretch and the team is struggling, then that maybe be more painful than a streak earlier in the year or not at such key times during the year.

3. Not scoring is bad, but many other players around the league are still effective leaders even when not putting the puck in the net. Doan is a great example as is dustin brown and a handful of others. They play with great heart, physicality, wear down opponents, and lead by example. Both score fewer goals than patty but are arguably better overall players. The knock on patty is that he is 6'2, 220 and plays 5'9 170. He wont get dirty, hits nothing, floats all the time, turns it on and off all the time. There are long stretches where he never reaches full speed in a game and is completely invisible. Nearly all other "top" players at least make a positive impact on the game for their teams. Ovie may not score every game, but he is gunna give it his all and make an impact.

No one expects him to put in 80 goals, one per game all year, but everyone expects him to try to do that, and when it sure looks like he doesnt seem to be trying, people get mad.

The "inconsistency" isnt just in the scoring, its in the whole game he brings which has earned him his label, and rightfully so. He is a major reason, not the only reason but a major one, why the sharks have failed to reach a single cup final in his 14 seasons with the team.

 

[MrChangoT97]

Send KURZ back to Philly, never really cared what he says about the Sharks.

 

[sjrules99]

Case in point about streaks coming at the wrong time:

Patty by series:

2012
CQF (blues) 5gp: 0 points, -1

2011:
CQF (LA): 6 gp, 5 pts, +2
CSF (DET): 7 gp, 1 pt, -1
CF (VAN): 5 gp, 7 pts, -2

*** very up and down: goalless in 12 of 18 games.

2010:
CQF (Avs): 6 gms, 3 pts, -2
CSF (Wings): 4 gps, 4 pts, +1
CF (Chi): 4 gp, 6 pts -2.

Scoreless in 8 of 14 games.

2009:
CQF (ANA): 6 gms, 3 pts, Even

2008:
CQF (CGY): 7 gms, 6 pts, EVEN
CSF (DAL): 6 gms, 2 pts, -2

Goalless in 9 of 13 games.

2007:
CQF (NAS): 5 gms, 6 pts, EVEN
CSF (DET): 6 gms, 0 pts, -5

Thus in the last 6 PO years, Patty has had at least one bad series in every single year. (I define bad series as being no better than .5 pts per game for the series as that would pretty much qualify as a bad series for any top liner). He also has had a total of 2 series in which he was a plus player out of a total of 12 (he was minus in 7).

You want to use statistical proof of inconsistency when it matters, simply look at his PO performance and it's clear as day. He can be great, but he inevitably disappears for at least 1 series, and is very rarely consistent enough to even be a plus player throughout a series. In other words, every work of criticism is backed by statistical evidence that he actually IS inconsistent.

 

[abaskin18]

Care to apply that breakdown to the other top line guys?

EDIT: Hell, even league wide, go ahead. Take the top players in the game as you see them and tell us how many don't have 1 bad series in a playoff year. I bet you'd be surprised by the results.

 

[sjrules99]

Further statistical proof:
in those 12 series over the last 6 years:

He has two completely pointless, one with just 1 point, one with 2, and two with 3. That means half of the series (6 out of 12) he puts up 3 points or less. He has only been at least a point per game player in 1/3 of the series. For a 2nd rounder making 5M, that's fine, but for a top liner making amongst the highest salaries in the league, it's sound criticism.

last 6 years: 67 gps, 43 pts, -12. Over an 82 game pace, that would be: 82 gms, 53 pts, -15. That's barely acceptable for a 2nd liner even. It's pretty hard to argue that those are "consistent" and solid stats no matter how you spin it.

 

[sjrules99]

Care to apply that breakdown to the other top line guys?

EDIT: Hell, even league wide, go ahead. Take the top players in the game as you see them and tell us how many don't have 1 bad series in a playoff year. I bet you'd be surprised by the results.

Don't get me wrong, he is not alone in his inconsistency. However, the article argues that he is not inconsistent and that is total bullshit using selective statistics. I simply look at all stats over the PO's over the last 6 years, and it's pretty clear.

However, if you insist. Let's look at the top players. Which would you like?

 

[abaskin18]

Don't get me wrong, he is not alone in his inconsistency. However, the article argues that he is not inconsistent and that is total bullshit using selective statistics. I simply look at all stats over the PO's over the last 6 years, and it's pretty clear.

However, if you insist. Let's look at the top players. Which would you like?

Since we have pretty different ideas about what makes a player valuable, why don't you just take your pick. If it seems skewed or cherry picked to me I'll let you know. Might want to start with SJ players and then move on to other players who have played in a similar amount of playoff games/series as Marleau has.

BTW, I'm not defending the article in any way. I'm just curious who these guys are who up to your standards in every playoff series.

 

[Cbrower91]

Care to apply that breakdown to the other top line guys?

EDIT: Hell, even league wide, go ahead. Take the top players in the game as you see them and tell us how many don't have 1 bad series in a playoff year. I bet you'd be surprised by the results.

Probably not because it would completely support the notion that everyone else failed to produce as well and he cant solely place it on marleau lol

 

[abaskin18]

Probably not because it would completely support the notion that everyone else failed to produce as well and he cant solely place it on marleau lol

Now, now. Let's wait for incontrovertible data.

 

[sjrules99]

Ovie: no series at .5 ppg or under in this year or last year (dont feel like looking further).
Sid: none this year, nor 2010...

perhaps, we should look closer to his salary range: The three forwards above him are iginla, thornton, and spezza, and the three below are Kopitar, Koivu, and Datsyuk. Let's take a look:

Iginla:
2009: only 1 series but 6 gms, 4 pts (better than .5)
2008: only 1 series (sharks): 7 gms, 8 pts
2007: 1 series (wings): 6 gms, 4 pts
2006: only 1 series (ducks): 7 gms, 8 pts

Not a single series under .66 PPG.

Thornton (this should be fun):
2012:
CQF: 5 gms, 5 pts, +2

2011:
CQF (LA); 6 gms, 5 pts, +1
CSF (DET): 6 gms, 6 pts, -3
CF (VAN): 5 gms, 6 pts, -3

2010:
CQF (AVS): 6 gms, 3 pts, -4 (This is the first at or under .5 ppg)
CSF (DET): 5 gms, 8 pts, -2
CF (CHI): 4 gms, 1 pt, -5

* This was a bad PO year for him for sure...

2009:
CQF (ANA): 6 gms, 5 pts, -3

2008:
CQF (CGY): 7 gms, 7 pts, +1
CSF (DAL): 6 gms, 3 pts, +2

I dont feel like going further, but clearly jumbo has has some bad series, but he has never been less than .5 ppg except for 1 pt vs. chicago. He has also been minus alot, and got a lot of blame until his last two season where he was must more consistent.

I'm kinda tired and dont feel like looking at the rest, but here's a few quick ones:

Spezza, 5 pts in 7 games this year and in the cup finals year it went: rd 1: 4 pts in 5 games, rd 2 8 pts in 5 games, rd 3, 8 pts in 5 games, and rd 4 he had only 2 pts in 5 games. So, aside from the cup final, he never had under .5 PPG there either.

Kopitar This year never had less than .8 PPG in any series.

Koivu has only made the PO's twice putting up 1 pt in 5 games, and then 5 pts in 6 games, so it's tough to compare there.

Conclusion:

Every single one of those players has been at least 1 PO without going under .5 PPG in a series. At least in the last 6 years (I didnt check further back), patty hasnt had a single year without having at least one PO series at or below .5 PPG.

 

[sjrules99]

if we want to look at other sharks, the only fair comparable is jumbo since no one else makes nearly 7M (havlat is closest at 5M though he has had a couple PO years without going under .6 PPG, but has only been in the PO's twice since 2006 so it's hard to compare.)

 

[abaskin18]

So now consistancy is .5ppg per series and you don't care to look at enough to make any much of a claim at all one way or the other. Marleau even meets your stupid criteria in 2009 & 2010.

Conclusion:

You're full of shit when it comes to breakdowns like these.

 

[SJVP408]

Ovie: no series at .5 ppg or under in this year or last year (dont feel like looking further).
Sid: none this year, nor 2010...

perhaps, we should look closer to his salary range: The three forwards above him are iginla, thornton, and spezza, and the three below are Kopitar, Koivu, and Datsyuk. Let's take a look:

Iginla:
2009: only 1 series but 6 gms, 4 pts (better than .5)
2008: only 1 series (sharks): 7 gms, 8 pts
2007: 1 series (wings): 6 gms, 4 pts
2006: only 1 series (ducks): 7 gms, 8 pts

Not a single series under .66 PPG.

Thornton (this should be fun):
2012:
CQF: 5 gms, 5 pts, +2

2011:
CQF (LA); 6 gms, 5 pts, +1
CSF (DET): 6 gms, 6 pts, -3
CF (VAN): 5 gms, 6 pts, -3

2010:
CQF (AVS): 6 gms, 3 pts, -4 (This is the first at or under .5 ppg)
CSF (DET): 5 gms, 8 pts, -2
CF (CHI): 4 gms, 1 pt, -5

* This was a bad PO year for him for sure...

2009:
CQF (ANA): 6 gms, 5 pts, -3

2008:
CQF (CGY): 7 gms, 7 pts, +1
CSF (DAL): 6 gms, 3 pts, +2

I dont feel like going further, but clearly jumbo has has some bad series, but he has never been less than .5 ppg except for 1 pt vs. chicago. He has also been minus alot, and got a lot of blame until his last two season where he was must more consistent.

I'm kinda tired and dont feel like looking at the rest, but here's a few quick ones:

Spezza, 5 pts in 7 games this year and in the cup finals year it went: rd 1: 4 pts in 5 games, rd 2 8 pts in 5 games, rd 3, 8 pts in 5 games, and rd 4 he had only 2 pts in 5 games. So, aside from the cup final, he never had under .5 PPG there either.

Kopitar This year never had less than .8 PPG in any series.

Koivu has only made the PO's twice putting up 1 pt in 5 games, and then 5 pts in 6 games, so it's tough to compare there.

Conclusion:

Every single one of those players has been at least 1 PO without going under .5 PPG in a series. At least in the last 6 years (I didnt check further back), patty hasnt had a single year without having at least one PO series at or below .5 PPG.

Didn't need that to convince me that Marleau is a small time player when the stakes are high. He's a good player that doesn't step up when the going gets tough. Don't need stats to back that up. Just watch the Sharks for the past 5 years.

That article lost me when it decided to use Pavelski as a control group for consistency. LOL