Game Thread: Lakers vs Clippers Apr 06, 2014

[HizzleRocker]

You might have a point if I had a history of accidents prior to you riding with me. D'Antoni didn't have a history of injury riddled teams until he was handed a team of players who were already dealing with injuries.

If you started riding with me and I had no previous history of automobile accidents, but you were riding with me because of accidents you had been in, that would be more like what D'Antoni has been dealing with. Under that scenario I might be kicking you out of my car. After all, you'd be the one with the accident history.

Touche. But that's my point. I never mentioned 7 seconds, etc... Just that for 2 straight years under him - for whatever reason - we have had weird injury after another. Issues that we've never had before. Coincidence??? Maybe its just bad karma and the basketball gods don't like him in LA. Whatever the reason - remove the common denominator.

 

[trojanfan12]

Touche. But that's my point. I never mentioned 7 seconds, etc... Just that for 2 straight years under him - for whatever reason - we have had weird injury after another. Issues that we've never had before. Coincidence??? Maybe its just bad karma and the basketball gods don't like him in LA. Whatever the reason - remove the common denominator.

Dude, he was handed a team of players that were already old and/or were already dealing with injuries. If a coach is handed a team of older/injured players, there is no coincidence or bad karma and it's not the coaches fault.

I might agree that on some level D'Antoni had something to do with it if he were handed a healthy team and they had this run of injuries, but he hasn't been handed anything close to a healthy team either season.

I really don't understand all of this D'Antoni hate. The guy was handed an already injured team when Brown was fired 5 games into the season. They spent the entire season trying to get healthy and learn their 3rd offensive system in 2 seasons. They finally got a little healthy and were playing well when Kobe went down followed by the other older and already injured players.

Then, going into this season, even if they were healthy, most agreed that they were looking at a 7th or 8th seed in the playoffs at best and more likely finishing around 9 or 10. That's the worst position to be in when trying to re-build.

Now, thanks in large measure to the injuries, they are looking at a possible top 5 draft pick and have found some guys who could be solid contributors to future playoff/contending teams. This is why I have zero frustration with this team and/or D'Antoni. As bad as this season has been, if the Lakers play their cards right, it could set them up well for the future.

 

[Retroram52]

You two (TJF12 and Hizzle) are addressing this issue and not stating the contribution of sports psychology. Don'tknowi may not be responsible for all of the injuries directly and the probability of that is low. There is however a culture of negativity in Lakerland that is permeating the environment and contributing to two to three years of injuries that continue to be a fixture.

It started with the loss of Dr. Buss and short Buss' BS and has accelerated over those two years with a series of events including short Buss's hate of Phil, his removal of the scouting department and pictures of Phil's contributions to championships, the hiring and firing of Mike Brown and then the hiring of Don'tknowi.

When you remove the rich history of the Lakers, you offend the players who worked their butts off to get there. This is why Kobe rightly pointed out that the culture is set at the top. Spagnuolo did the same thing with the Rams and the effect was the players stop playing for the guy and injuries went up and losing went up as well.

Age and previous injuries are also contributing factors and when players get alot of negativity running through their heads, the probability of injuries goes up because the predispostion psychology favors injuries. That much is known in the research data.

Add to this the losing and the rifts between Don'tknowi and Gasol and then Kaman and you get a negativity culture that increases the probability of injuries. It is sort of like the same psychology that drives the stock market. A lot of contributing factors indeed.

Thus, as much as I don't like Don'tknowi, he is not the sole factor for all of the injuries and he (along with the coaching staff) has developed some young players . It is too complex to state that and as I have just outlined, this complexity has to be dismantled starting at the top or this stuff including losing will continue.

 

[trojanfan12]

Here is what I think we will see over the next 2-3 seasons regardless of whether the Lakers retain D'Antoni or not.


Kobe will do as he has been and continue to rehab. I'm not sure what to expect of him or what he will have in the tank, but I think that being out for as long as he has, will ultimately be a very good thing for him. His body has not had this much opportunity to heal in 18 years. Remember, not only are we talking about the 2 major injuries, but also all of those nagging injuries that he's been carrying around for the past 5+ seasons that never got a chance to fully heal because he had been playing basketball year round for quite some time.


They will make a serious offer to Lebron who will stay in Miami and a hopefully less serious offer to 'Melo who will stay in New York. I think they will sign as many of the current roster as they can while preserving as much cap space as they can. I also think that they will try to replace any players they don't re-sign with a solid veteran FA or 2.


They, along with Kobe, will try to get Pau to re-sign to a 2 year deal at around $10 million per. I think him returning is probably 50/50.


The draft pick is a crap shoot at this point and depending on where they end up and who they can get, we may see a draft day trade or a trade very shortly after the draft.


Next years team will hopefully be healthier and will likely be a 5-6 seed in the playoffs. Barring a major trade along the way, they will likely land a star FA like Kevin Love after next season.


As far as the "culture". Short Buss doing Phil the way he did was wrong and shouldn't have been done, but I think the organization has moved past that. The good thing about Phil going to the Knicks is that he and his huge shadow are removed from the organization and the Lakers can move forward without people constantly wondering "What would Phil do?"


The biggest issue as far as culture is the injuries and the losing. Those, along with the negative press that comes with them, tend to weigh on players, but are also relatively easy to fix. By all reports, these guys get along, have decent chemistry and they pretty much always play hard, even if they don't always play well. So, it's not like they have a locker room full of players who are at each others throats.


Now, we just have to see if they make the right moves.

 

[HizzleRocker]

Since he's come to the team:

* Losing record
* Embarrassing sweep
* Worst defense of all-time
* Injuries
* More injuries
* Even more injuries
* Kobe doesn't want to play for him
* Gasol doesn't want to play for him
* Hill doesn't want to play for him
* Kaman doesn't want to play for him, and says signing with LA was a mistake due to him
* Howard left to get away from him
* We lost Phil Jackson
* We lost Phil Jackson again
* Laker Nation hates him.

You give me that performance in any other job in this country and you get fired. I don't care what the excuses are, at some point you run out of them.

 

[lakersrule]

Since he's come to the team:

* Losing record
* Embarrassing sweep
* Worst defense of all-time
* Injuries
* More injuries
* Even more injuries
* Kobe doesn't want to play for him
* Gasol doesn't want to play for him
* Hill doesn't want to play for him
* Kaman doesn't want to play for him, and says signing with LA was a mistake due to him
* Howard left to get away from him
* We lost Phil Jackson
* We lost Phil Jackson again
* Laker Nation hates him.

You give me that performance in any other job in this country and you get fired. I don't care what the excuses are, at some point you run out of them.

Except maybe local weatherman

 

[trojanfan12]

Since he's come to the team:

* Losing record - He was handed an old injured team that had gone 0-8 in the pre-season, was 0-5 when the Brown was fired and had to learn it's 3rd system in 2 seasons and got them playing well by the end of the season and in the playoffs.
* Embarrassing sweep - Just like the previous 2 seasons and Phil's last season.
* Worst defense of all-time - Given the injuries, of course they'd have a bad defense. It's basketball, not rocket science. Defense requires communication. When have they had a consistent lineup to develop that?
* Injuries - Been over this.
* More injuries - and this
* Even more injuries - and this too. Almost every injury was pre-D'Antoni and not his fault.
* Kobe doesn't want to play for him - Find one quote directly from Kobe. I can't find one where he has ever said that.
* Gasol doesn't want to play for him - Gasol has never said this and they appear to have ironed out their differences once Gasol learned how to incorporate his skills into D'Antoni's offense and D'Antoni learned how to use a big with Pau's skillset.
* Hill doesn't want to play for him - Not only has Hill never said this. D'Antoni is part of the reason he's even in the league.
* Kaman doesn't want to play for him, and says signing with LA was a mistake due to him - D'Antoni didn't sign Kaman, management did. D'Antoni shouldn't have to change his system for thye backup center. Basically, this is a reach by you.
* Howard left to get away from him - Howard left because he couldn't handle the expectations and wanted to tell a guy with 5 rings how to win a title when he has won zero rings. That's why Howard left. He left the Lakers complaining about pick and roll and went to a team that runs almost nothing but pick and roll. Using Howard in your reasoning is a huge reach.
* We lost Phil Jackson
* We lost Phil Jackson again
* Laker Nation hates him.

Laker Nation is busily proving what everyone says about not knowing basketball to be true. Laker Natio0n hates him because he's not Phil. Well, guess what. Phil didn't leave because of D'Antoni and D'Antoni didn't appoint himself coach over Phil. People need to get over Phil. He's gone, he's not coming back and when he hasn't had at least 2 of the best players in the league on his team, he hasn't won any more than any other coach would.


You give me that performance in any other job in this country and you get fired. I don't care what the excuses are, at some point you run out of them.

Are you even a little bit serious with this? Really?!? If this were any other job and an employee was given what D'Antoni has been given and told to produce the same results as those with who were given a lot more to work with, they'd win a wrongful termination lawsuit.

I get it. Some Lakers fans are mad because of the past 2 seasons and want a scapegoat. The easiest scapegoat is always the coach because it's easy and then you can feel like "something was done".

When a coach has been given a fair chance with good talent and doesn't produce the expected results, then it's the right move. For example, when Del Harris couldn't get the Lakers past the 2nd round and was fired, it was the right call.

Firing D'Antoni given what he's been handed to work with is shortsighted and lazy. Fortunately for those of you who want him fired, that's right in Short Buss's wheelhouse, so you'll probably get your wish.

 

[HizzleRocker]

Are you even a little bit serious with this? Really?!? If this were any other job and an employee was given what D'Antoni has been given and told to produce the same results as those with who were given a lot more to work with, they'd win a wrongful termination lawsuit.

I get it. Some Lakers fans are mad because of the past 2 seasons and want a scapegoat. The easiest scapegoat is always the coach because it's easy and then you can feel like "something was done".

When a coach has been given a fair chance with good talent and doesn't produce the expected results, then it's the right move. For example, when Del Harris couldn't get the Lakers past the 2nd round and was fired, it was the right call.

Firing D'Antoni given what he's been handed to work with is shortsighted and lazy. Fortunately for those of you who want him fired, that's right in Short Buss's wheelhouse, so you'll probably get your wish.

Alright, well we both share in common that we want the Lakers to get better. Could not disagree more with the coach though.

At some point excuses become just that - excuses. I'm not even saying some of them don't have merit - some actually do. However, this has been a fucking train wreck ever since he came on board.

Everything I said was true, you just made excuses for each and every one of them.

Put it this way: You are completey on an island right now with dantoni. Totally alone here. Ex-Laker players who have spoken out (i.e. Magic and others) disagree with you. Sports analysts disagree with you. Even sports talk show hosts and personalities disagree with you. Basically every single Laker poster on this board disagrees with you. Laker nation disagrees with you. Even basically every fan of every other team not LA disagrees with you.

Maybe you are smarter than every single other person out there. I suppose its possible. I'm not saying you haven't made some decent points (you have). You are just wrong about the ultimate conclusion.

It's not working. He has to go.

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

1.) I agree with Retroram52 when you remove the rich history of the Lakers, you offend all of Lakers nation & the culture of winning & tradition has gone out the window completely. This is one of the main reasons why earlier this season I explained why a preferable candidate IMO like Rambis or Byron would be a good Idea to coach this Lakers team going foward. Sure their can be some better candidates, but that doesn't always translate into that coach being the right coach for a particular team & franchise IMO. The tradition has been lost & short Buss has done all of this just to give Phil a big FUCK YOU!. Hiring Brown over Shaw was incomprehensible & idiotic, then hiring Dumbtoni over Phil was just plain blasphemy.

2.) Now I know some of you might say we can't all blame it on short Buss, he did try & get Chris Paul here & that trade got vetoed. He did bring in Howard, but unfortunately it didn't work out, but the reason that didn't work out IMO is because the tradition was gone from top to bottom, FACT!

3.) Now as far as Dumbtoni I clearly stated a few weeks back that I will give him a pass on the injuries issues, as a matter of fact I stated that some blame has to go on the training staff, I mean WTF are they doing to these guys in their rehab & treatments for them to get back on the court & get hurt all over again ??
From my understanding it can't be because of Dumbtoni's practices his practice are only about 1 hour long compared to Mike Brown who's practices would be 4-5 hours long, this is why players around the NBA hate Brown, it's no secret.

4.) The problem I think with Dumbtoni I don't feel like he knows how to make adjustments in game & during our next opponent observations. Also his defense where ever he has been, has almost always been dead last. During his 4 years in Phoenix 2 of those years even though they were the highest scoring team in the League they were dead last in defense & the other 2 seasons they were ranked 22nd & 26th in the league. During the playoffs this is why they got knocked out when facing a defensive team, their scoring went down & the other teams scoring went up. Dumbtoni is not a great playoff coach neither IMO. Yes they got close & all most beat the Spurs to get to the finals, but the numbers don't lie what his teams have been on defense.

5.) Also it seems players tend to get into heated arguments with him & players just want to run away from him & not ever play for him again, we don't need a culture like this going foward. HELL NO!! it's time to remove him, even if some of you might say he never got a fair shot. His just not the right coach for this team & franchise & I wont forgive him for what he said to the fans earlier in the season, to go root for another team if we don't like it. Even Worthy said that was uncalled for & we are Lakers nation die hard fans. Fuck you Dumbtoni!

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

1.) I agree with Retroram52 when you remove the rich history of the Lakers, you offend all of Lakers nation & the culture of winning & tradition has gone out the window completely. This is one of the main reasons why earlier this season I explained why a preferable candidate IMO like Rambis or Byron would be a good Idea to coach this Lakers team going foward. Sure their can be some better candidates, but that doesn't always translate into that coach being the right coach for a particular team & franchise IMO. The tradition has been lost & short Buss has done all of this just to give Phil a big FUCK YOU!. Hiring Brown over Shaw was incomprehensible & idiotic, then hiring Dumbtoni over Phil was just plain blasphemy.

2.) Now I know some of you might say we can't all blame it on short Buss, he did try & get Chris Paul here & that trade got vetoed. He did bring in Howard, but unfortunately it didn't work out, but the reason that didn't work out IMO is because the tradition was gone from top to bottom, FACT!

3.) Now as far as Dumbtoni I clearly stated a few weeks back that I will give him a pass on the injuries issues, as a matter of fact I stated that some blame has to go on the training staff, I mean WTF are they doing to these guys in their rehab & treatments for them to get back on the court & get hurt all over again ??
From my understanding it can't be because of Dumbtoni's practices his practice are only about 1 hour long compared to Mike Brown who's practices would be 4-5 hours long, this is why players around the NBA hate Brown, it's no secret.

4.) The problem I think with Dumbtoni I don't feel like he knows how to make adjustments in game & during our next opponent observations. Also his defense where ever he has been, has almost always been dead last. During his 4 years in Phoenix 2 of those years even though they were the highest scoring team in the League they were dead last in defense & the other 2 seasons they were ranked 22nd & 26th in the league. During the playoffs this is why they got knocked out when facing a defensive team, their scoring went down & the other teams scoring went up. Dumbtoni is not a great playoff coach neither IMO. Yes they got close & all most beat the Spurs to get to the finals, but the numbers don't lie what his teams have been on defense.

5.) Also it seems players tend to get into heated arguments with him & players just want to run away from him & not ever play for him again, we don't need a culture like this going foward. HELL NO!! it's time to remove him, even if some of you might say he never got a fair shot. His just not the right coach for this team & franchise & I wont forgive him for what he said to the fans earlier in the season, to go root for another team if we don't like it. Even Worthy said that was uncalled for & we are Lakers nation die hard fans. Fuck you Dumbtoni!

What really did it for me was when Dwight left. Leaving the biggest team in the NBA to play for LESS money should have been an eye opener to the FO regarding the coaching staff.

 

[trojanfan12]

Alright, well we both share in common that we want the Lakers to get better. Could not disagree more with the coach though.

I agree that we both want them to get better. As for the coach, I don't know if he's the right guy or not and neither do you. We won't know unless and until he is given a fair chance with a healthy roster.

At some point excuses become just that - excuses. I'm not even saying some of them don't have merit - some actually do. However, this has been a fucking train wreck ever since he came on board.

You are either just reaching or you gave a very short memory. It was a train wreck before D'Antoni got here. The Lakers were swept out of the playoffs in Phil's last season and went out 4-1 under Mike Brown and that was with a better, healthier roster than D'Antoni has had.

Everything I said was true, you just made excuses for each and every one of them.

Actually, everything you said was not true. It was not true the Phil left and then left again since D'Antoni arrived. Phil left before D'Antoni arrived. The rest were also not excuses. What you posted were things that pre-dated D'Antoni that you are trying to put on him as an excuse to fire him. The problem is, it just doesn't fit with your narrative.

Put it this way: You are completey on an island right now with dantoni. Totally alone here. Ex-Laker players who have spoken out (i.e. Magic and others) disagree with you. Sports analysts disagree with you. Even sports talk show hosts and personalities disagree with you. Basically every single Laker poster on this board disagrees with you. Laker nation disagrees with you. Even basically every fan of every other team not LA disagrees with you.

First of all, I couldn't care less if I'm on an island or not. Considering some of the posts from some Lakers fans, I'm honestly embarrassed at times to be lumped in. Also, I have heard plenty of analysts, talk show hosts and color commentators including Jeff Van Gundy, Reggie Miller, Doug Collins and Hubie Brown not only say that D'Antoni hasn't been given a fair chance, but that he's actually done a good job considering the circumstances (Guess I'm not alone on my island after all). They have said that the team plays hard, hasn't quit on him and he has developed the young guys. Also, the only quote that can be directly attributed to Kobe is when Kobe said that he doesn't think D'Antoni's really been given a fair shake.


Maybe you are smarter than every single other person out there. I suppose its possible. I'm not saying you haven't made some decent points (you have). You are just wrong about the ultimate conclusion.

It's not working. He has to go.

I'm not saying he's the right guy and never have. But Lakers fans need to take off the purple and gold glasses and look at what has been going on with this team since Phil's last season. In what was Phil's "farewell tour" the team quit on him and got swept out of the playoffs. Then, they hired Mike Brown who did not better than Phil in his last 2 seasons and they fired him 5 games into last season.

Then management led Lakers fans to believe that we were getting Phil, only to pull a bait and switch and hire D'Antoni. I guarantee, if Phil had never been dangled out there by management, there would be a lot less bitching about D'Antoni.

I don't know about being "smarter than every single other person out there", but I'm a hell of a lot smarter than most Lakers fans apparently. At least I can look at things objectively enough to see that the current issues have been coming since 2011 and that they have little or nothing to do with D'Antoni.


Oh and here's another person on my island: The Case for LA Lakers Keeping Mike D'Antoni | Bleacher Report

 

[Retroram52]

TJF12, I didn't know you owned an island? just kidding there dude.

 

[trojanfan12]

TJF12, I didn't know you owned an island? just kidding there dude.

I'll send a boat for you. It's pretty nice here. Free beer during happy hour and it's always happy hour.

 

[Retroram52]

I am not a big beer drinker, but if you are serving a tastey and spicey hot pizza, I might take you up on the suds offer.

 

[trojanfan12]

I am not a big beer drinker, but if you are serving a tastey and spicey hot pizza, I might take you up on the suds offer.

We do have good pizza here on the island.