Lacy for McCoy

[Chef99]

And last but not least. What if the Bryce Harper owner wanted to deal him for Michael Brantley after the first week of the season. What looks to be a no brainer veto, turns out to be a landslide win for the Brantley owner.

Conclusion. We know nothing! We are just guessing.

Of course we are guessing, but the end of year conclusion does not make a trade any less vetoable!!!

How about if I traded Joey votto, dominic Brown and Cliff lee for corey Kluber early on this season... That is a clear vetoable trade, but it would have worked out for the "loser"... Results mean nothing to a trade, you can only look at present value!!!


Apparently TKO and Tlance are getting frusterated with this debate... I, personally have been having fun with it... I like talking philosophy, the actual players are irrelevant in the debate... If I came out too strong or stubborn, don't blame me, this thread was the first Philosophy type thread I have been able to argue here on SportsHoopla since the restricted access, and I am arguing a little too strongly...

I do agree with what I am saying, but I honestly don't think I would ever actually follow what I am saying... I do think this is collusion, and I think what you guys get confused about is that it could only be an opinion since there is no real way to prove collusion... And I just don't understand the thought that you are willing to veto a trade ONLY if it is egregious collusion... shouldn't all collusion that you believe is collusion be vetoed by you??

I am liking you more and more. I thought Foot and I were the craziest ones on these boards.

 

[TKOSpikes]

I guess I'm not done. Lol. And milk, I'm not frustrated. I just totally disagree. You say things like philosophy and results don't matter. But you're basing your results on two games. We're talking about two players who were taken at most, 8 players apart. Collusion does not exist in the 1st round. There's nothing to argue here. You're saying you would veto a trade based on your feelings. Eddie Lacy is a very good football player and a 1st round pick, and therefore can't be involved in collusion in a straight up swap with another 1st round pick. This is not my opinion, this is fact.

1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick.

 

[tometom]

you guys make me laugh. arguing this is an okay trade.

ignore the fact 2 weeks of the season are gone and pretend you are drafting right now again. If you had the #1 pick in the draft, who do you take? McCoy, no question about it. Now, let me ask you this, you have the #1 pick, what would it take for me to get that draft pick away from you? Can we just swap pick #5 for Pick #1 straight up with no other exchange? That's exactly what you guy's are saying. no one in their right mind would do that. You'd at least want to get an upgrade in some other round.

thus the correct conclusion is veto. the trade should be:
McCoy + player X
Lacy + a player better than player X.

 

[TKOSpikes]

And yes! End of year conclusion is EVERYTHING. That's the whole point of making a deal! What are you even saying????

And your baseball reference, again, makes no sense! This is ONE FOR ONE BETWEEN TWO FIRST ROUNDERS!

 

[Raid]

1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick. 1st round pick.

Particularly in leagues less than 16. How big is this league in question? 10?

 

[TKOSpikes]

What makes you think I'd take McCoy? I definitely would not.

 

[Chef99]

you guys make me laugh. arguing this is an okay trade.

ignore the fact 2 weeks of the season are gone and pretend you are drafting right now again. If you had the #1 pick in the draft, who do you take? McCoy, no question about it. Now, let me ask you this, you have the #1 pick, what would it take for me to get that draft pick away from you? Can we just swap pick #5 for Pick #1 straight up with no other exchange? That's exactly what you guy's are saying. no one in their right mind would do that. You'd at least want to get an upgrade in some other round.

thus the correct conclusion is veto. the trade should be:
McCoy + player X
Lacy + a player better than player X.

Thing is, no one is arguing that it is or is not an okay trade, but whether or not it is vetoable.

And TKO, I'm reasonably sure at this point that Milk is trying to be outrageous to get a rise out of people. Makes for a fun read.

 

[TKOSpikes]

LOL - just looked at milk's RB ranks.

McCoy 2nd
Lacy 4th!!!!

LOL - so if you picked Lacy 4th and wanted to get Lynch, or Forte, your scenario wouldn't allow you to, because why? Only you are allowed changing your mind I guess.

 

[TKOSpikes]

And don't come back with the first two weeks' results, because that has nothing to do with next week, or the week after that. And one could argue anyway that Sproles' doubling of McCoy is concern.

Sorry, but it's so funny how wrong you are.

 

[Raid]

you guys make me laugh. arguing this is an okay trade.

ignore the fact 2 weeks of the season are gone and pretend you are drafting right now again. If you had the #1 pick in the draft, who do you take? McCoy, no question about it. Now, let me ask you this, you have the #1 pick, what would it take for me to get that draft pick away from you? Can we just swap pick #5 for Pick #1 straight up with no other exchange? That's exactly what you guy's are saying. no one in their right mind would do that. You'd at least want to get an upgrade in some other round.

thus the correct conclusion is veto. the trade should be:
McCoy + player X
Lacy + a player better than player X.

Many leagues have a serpentine draft, thus YES, that trade is LIKELY as the #1 pick must wait longer for it's #2 pick, and the other guy gets a quality player at #5, AND a higher pick in round 2.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Thing is, no one is arguing that it is or is not an okay trade, but whether or not it is vetoable.

And TKO, I'm reasonably sure at this point that Milk is trying to be outrageous to get a rise out of people. Makes for a fun read.

yes and no... The points I am making I truly do believe(whether I am doing a good job or not making them)... But I would personally never challenge this deal, because I hate the Veto system, and I would like to see it abolished...

And I am debating this strongly because I am entertained by it since I see this topic to be more philosophy than actual fantasy... and I am not able to debate many philosophy topics anymore since I have restricted access to only the fantasy baseball and fantasy football boards... Some people appreciated my devils advocate debating style, others just saw it to be circular logic...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

LOL - just looked at milk's RB ranks.

McCoy 2nd
Lacy 4th!!!!

LOL - so if you picked Lacy 4th and wanted to get Lynch, or Forte, your scenario wouldn't allow you to, because why? Only you are allowed changing your mind I guess.

and I would have been making the same arguments even if I viewed Lacy better than McCoy, since my rankings are irrelevant to my argument... I have debated this whole time under 2 assumptions:
1. McCoy was drafted before Lacy
2. McCoy was not an auto drafted player
And I think you are fixated on the first round... it is irrelevant where the players were taken...


Also, what I said is that End of year results mean nothing to the present day value because we don't make trades in hindsight, it is only about present day value!!!

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and I would have been making the same arguments even if I viewed Lacy better than McCoy, since my rankings are irrelevant to my argument... I have debated this whole time under 2 assumptions:
1. McCoy was drafted before Lacy
2. McCoy was not an auto drafted player
And I think you are fixated on the first round... it is irrelevant where the players were taken as long as McCoy was taken first...


Also, what I said is that End of year results mean nothing to the present day value because we don't make trades in hindsight, it is only about present day value!!



Fixed it...

 

[TKOSpikes]

In what bizarro world? In that case, it should be McCoy + Andre Johnson for Sproles. I can't believe you're telling me that after two games, you can justify or debunk two players ranked two spots apart (BY YOUR OWN HANDS).

You are 100% explaining your point clearly. It just makes absolutely no sense. You can change your mind on Lacy, but the McCoy owner can't change his on Shady. The only thing that should be vetoed is your rationale on this topic.

What happened last week vs what happens tomorrow are two VERY different things, except you don't get the points from last week after a trade!

 

[TKOSpikes]

And to be clear. I love ya milk. Please don't take any debating like anything else.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And to be clear. I love ya milk. Please don't take any debating like anything else.

Like I said, I am having fun, if I was getting frusterated I would have started calling people names(apparently I accidentally called chef names- but that was not intended)...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

In what bizarro world? In that case, it should be McCoy + Andre Johnson for Sproles. I can't believe you're telling me that after two games, you can justify or debunk two players ranked two spots apart (BY YOUR OWN HANDS).

You are 100% explaining your point clearly. It just makes absolutely no sense. You can change your mind on Lacy, but the McCoy owner can't change his on Shady. The only thing that should be vetoed is your rationale on this topic.

What happened last week vs what happens tomorrow are two VERY different things, except you don't get the points from last week after a trade!

I am not saying minds cant change, what I am asking is where could someone's mind have changed??

If the McCoy owner was so worried about the sproles affect then why did they wait until after week 2 to make the deal, sproles had more affect in the running game in week one!!! so if he was so worried, you would think he would make that trade after week one!!! Week 2 McCoy had a McCoy game 100+ total yards and a TD!!! and was the clear RUNNING BACK of the game... ... In week 2 Sproles only had 4 carries!!! Not to mention The Sproles affect was being talked about before the season even started... So I just don't see the panic to get rid of him, nor has his value really changed at all...

Lacy on the other hand had a concussion in week one(automatic value decreaser), and had a bad game in week 2... So where was the change in mind that Lacy was better, It had to be Before the draft if there was any!!!

So I just don't see the point where the McCoy owner can think that Lacy is better than McCoy... I could see a preseason trade of these 2 after the turf toe reports and sproles fear, but not after week 2... And it is not like there is a way this trade sat in the PENDING room for long since they are in a relationship and they clearly knew about the offer...


Again, I will admit I jumped into collusion to early since we know nothing about this league... Is this a long lasting league of casual owners who don't pay much attention to football?? If so then I would not Veto it either since history has shown the constant bad trades...

I just don't see any attempt from the owner to have made a better deal(I know this is an assumption, but to me it is a clear deduction)... and since there was no attempt to do better, and the owner traded the better player who is having the better season in a one for one trade for a replacement player, THAT CRIES Collusion to me...


Note: I would not have had a problem if it was McCoy for Peyton Manning or McCoy for anyone besides a RB...

The round picked is irrelevant, and the player received is irrelevant... the only important points are that it is a trade of the same position where the player who was perceived to be better is having the better season(and neither is even debatable), and there was minimal or no attempt to find a better trade!!!

 

[TKOSpikes]

So, in week 3, if Lacy has 100+ and a couple of TD and total access to the GB backfield, and McCoy has 67 total yards and Sproles sneaks another TD or two, it's okay to do the trade then?

If your answer is yes, then you are totally missing the point.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I know I am making a lot assumptions, but you have to have an opinion on these factors!! The question by the op was whether you would veto or not. There is no way to prove collusion, so you have to analyze the trade the way you see it to figure out whether it is vetoable or not. And make assumptions.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So, in week 3, if Lacy has 100+ and a couple of TD and total access to the GB backfield, and McCoy has 67 total yards and Sproles sneaks another TD or two, it's okay to do the trade then?

If your answer is yes, then you are totally missing the point.

Even if the trade works out at the end I still wouldnt change my mind. End of year stats don't mean anything for current player value. So no, even if lacy has a great game Sunday and McCoy doesn't that won't change my mind on this deal!!