Kurt Warner Not All RG3's Fault vs Detroit

[countryroads316]

Kurt Warner diagnoses why Washington Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III is struggling - NFL Videos

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

It's what I've been saying too. I get it, Griffin has terrible pocket presence. He takes way more sacks than he should. But because that is his history everyone want to blame the sacks and hits he took on Thursday was on him and that's nonsense.

Again he had 2 seconds to throw, he did not run right into a blitzing linebacker as he has done in the past. At worst he held the ball for 1/10th of a second too long on the incompletion to Grant, on the play fake he MAY have been able to let it go but we couldn't see the receiver to know if he was open or covered. And again it was 2 seconds on that play before the DE climbed on top of him.

Because of his history everyone wants to say half the sacks and hits were on him and I just don't think that's fair.

 

[j_y19]

It's what I've been saying too. I get it, Griffin has terrible pocket presence. He takes way more sacks than he should. But because that is his history everyone want to blame the sacks and hits he took on Thursday was on him and that's nonsense.

Again he had 2 seconds to throw, he did not run right into a blitzing linebacker as he has done in the past. At worst he held the ball for 1/10th of a second too long on the incompletion to Grant, on the play fake he MAY have been able to let it go but we couldn't see the receiver to know if he was open or covered. And again it was 2 seconds on that play before the DE climbed on top of him.

Because of his history everyone wants to say half the sacks and hits were on him and I just don't think that's fair.

I'm not defending the play of the OL, they sucked. But Griffin has no pocket presence at all. Take the play where Scherff gets blown back. It was one defender that was applying pressure and Scherff still kept his body between him and Griffin. All Griffin had to do was side step to his right. He would have then had a clean line of sight. But he started to back pedal to his left, right into the right DE and the collapsing Scherff. I've become convinced that this is not going to be a learned trait for Griffin. It's almost an sense and he just doesn't have it. Time to cut our losses and move on.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

John Kiem has been as critical as anyone of Griffin. Here is his breakdown which is pretty much how I saw it. I'll say it again, just because he has demonstrated poor pocket presence in the past does not automatically mean it was the big problem the other night.

Here’s a look at what happened on each dropback, excluding including one play nullified by a penalty (where he passed up an open receiver to hit a checkdown):


Down and distance: Second-and-11
Time before pass: 2.13 seconds before he was hit.
What happened: Griffin was pressured up the middle then tried to spin to the left away from pressure only to find more. He was sacked and fumbled, but the Redskins recovered.
Why it happened: Griffin had little time to do anything and the receivers were not yet turned around. Right guard Brandon Scherff had the same issue: His hands are too wide, leaving his chest exposed, which the defender used to drive him back into Griffin. Tough to blame this on the quarterback, though it was a good chance for him to show any improved pocket presence/movement if nothing else – the opening was to his right (easy to see after the fact, no doubt). Regardless, he needed to take better care of the ball.

Down and distance: Third-and-21
Time before pass: .98 seconds
What happened: Screen to the left to Andre Roberts.
Why it happened: Nothing bad here. There’s no need to put him in a bad situation so pick up some yards and punt. Smart play call.

Down and distance: First-and-10
Time before pass: 2.98 seconds
What happened: Griffin used play-action and took a five-step drop, only to have his pass batted down by Lions linebacker Tahir Whitehead.
Why it happened: Because left tackle Willie Smith was beaten to the inside and driven back into the passing lane on the other side of the pocket. It almost looked like interior pressure, but in reality it was the left tackle getting moved over. The rest of the pocket was solid.

Down and distance: Second-and-10
Time before pass: 1.88 seconds.
What happened: Griffin connected for 4 yards to receiver Pierre Garcon on a little hook route. But Griffin was hit on the throw.
Why it happened: A blitz off the edge left a man free on Griffin, but what compounded it was Smith also giving up pressure again to his inside. The result: Griffin was hit again. It did not impact the play because Griffin was going to Garcon regardless, but it was yet another hit.

Down and distance: Third-and-6
Time before pass: 2.63 seconds
What happened: Griffin took a three-step drop then a hitch step and threw the ball. He was drilled by a linebacker on a delayed blitz.
Why it happened: No one picked up the linebacker. The back, Chris Thompson, went inside to help vs. the five-man rush. But that left the Lions linebacker with a free lane. He had dropped, but when he saw the opening, he took it and drilled Griffin. To Griffin’s credit, he hung in there and delivered a catchable ball to receiver Andre Roberts. Perhaps Griffin could have helped himself by not taking a hitch step and just planting and throwing. The ball was out as Roberts broke.

Down and Distance: Third-and-2.
Time before pass: 1.90 seconds before he was hit.
What happened: Griffin threw incomplete to Garcon on the right side, but mainly because he was drilled as he started to throw. As Griffin started to throw, Garcon was just coming out of his break. At some point a quarterback has to throw with trust in his protection.
Why it happened: Because nobody blocked a defensive end in a four-point stance. That’s a new one. Smith blocked down on the play and the running back, Chris Thompson, was on the other side of Griffin. He looked to that side, started to go there but went to the middle.

Down and distance: Second-and-12
Time before pass: 2.41 seconds
What happened: Griffin was sacked for a 4-yard loss.
Why it happened: Smith allowed the defender into his pads and was driven back. The rest of the pocket was clean, but Griffin tried to move up and did so into more pressure.

Down and distance: Third-and-16
Time before pass: 3.00 seconds
What happened: On another straight dropback, Griffin tried to run through the right side, but the ball was too loose and it fell out. In trying to recover it, he was hit in the head by Detroit lineman Corey Wootton, resulting in a concussion.
Why it happened: Because Griffin took off running from a clean pocket. Maybe he was so scarred by this point that he felt pressure that didn’t exist. Tough way to survive as a passer, though. In this situation, perhaps they could have called screen just to get the ball out – or an inside handoff to Thompson. Regardless, Griffin had options available underneath. The Lions took away the two deep routes – six defenders were at least 10 yards from the line of scrimmage. In this case, hit an underneath target and let them take the punishment. Griffin had zero shot at picking up a first down with his legs.

Washington Redskins acquire tight end Derek Carrier from San Francisco 49ers

 

[j_y19]

John Kiem has been as critical as anyone of Griffin. Here is his breakdown which is pretty much how I saw it. I'll say it again, just because he has demonstrated poor pocket presence in the past does not automatically mean it was the big problem the other night.

Here’s a look at what happened on each dropback, excluding including one play nullified by a penalty (where he passed up an open receiver to hit a checkdown):


Down and distance: Second-and-11
Time before pass: 2.13 seconds before he was hit.
What happened: Griffin was pressured up the middle then tried to spin to the left away from pressure only to find more. He was sacked and fumbled, but the Redskins recovered.
Why it happened: Griffin had little time to do anything and the receivers were not yet turned around. Right guard Brandon Scherff had the same issue: His hands are too wide, leaving his chest exposed, which the defender used to drive him back into Griffin. Tough to blame this on the quarterback, though it was a good chance for him to show any improved pocket presence/movement if nothing else – the opening was to his right (easy to see after the fact, no doubt). Regardless, he needed to take better care of the ball.

Down and distance: Third-and-21
Time before pass: .98 seconds
What happened: Screen to the left to Andre Roberts.
Why it happened: Nothing bad here. There’s no need to put him in a bad situation so pick up some yards and punt. Smart play call.

Down and distance: First-and-10
Time before pass: 2.98 seconds
What happened: Griffin used play-action and took a five-step drop, only to have his pass batted down by Lions linebacker Tahir Whitehead.
Why it happened: Because left tackle Willie Smith was beaten to the inside and driven back into the passing lane on the other side of the pocket. It almost looked like interior pressure, but in reality it was the left tackle getting moved over. The rest of the pocket was solid.

Down and distance: Second-and-10
Time before pass: 1.88 seconds.
What happened: Griffin connected for 4 yards to receiver Pierre Garcon on a little hook route. But Griffin was hit on the throw.
Why it happened: A blitz off the edge left a man free on Griffin, but what compounded it was Smith also giving up pressure again to his inside. The result: Griffin was hit again. It did not impact the play because Griffin was going to Garcon regardless, but it was yet another hit.

Down and distance: Third-and-6
Time before pass: 2.63 seconds
What happened: Griffin took a three-step drop then a hitch step and threw the ball. He was drilled by a linebacker on a delayed blitz.
Why it happened: No one picked up the linebacker. The back, Chris Thompson, went inside to help vs. the five-man rush. But that left the Lions linebacker with a free lane. He had dropped, but when he saw the opening, he took it and drilled Griffin. To Griffin’s credit, he hung in there and delivered a catchable ball to receiver Andre Roberts. Perhaps Griffin could have helped himself by not taking a hitch step and just planting and throwing. The ball was out as Roberts broke.

Down and Distance: Third-and-2.
Time before pass: 1.90 seconds before he was hit.
What happened: Griffin threw incomplete to Garcon on the right side, but mainly because he was drilled as he started to throw. As Griffin started to throw, Garcon was just coming out of his break. At some point a quarterback has to throw with trust in his protection.
Why it happened: Because nobody blocked a defensive end in a four-point stance. That’s a new one. Smith blocked down on the play and the running back, Chris Thompson, was on the other side of Griffin. He looked to that side, started to go there but went to the middle.

Down and distance: Second-and-12
Time before pass: 2.41 seconds
What happened: Griffin was sacked for a 4-yard loss.
Why it happened: Smith allowed the defender into his pads and was driven back. The rest of the pocket was clean, but Griffin tried to move up and did so into more pressure.

Down and distance: Third-and-16
Time before pass: 3.00 seconds
What happened: On another straight dropback, Griffin tried to run through the right side, but the ball was too loose and it fell out. In trying to recover it, he was hit in the head by Detroit lineman Corey Wootton, resulting in a concussion.
Why it happened: Because Griffin took off running from a clean pocket. Maybe he was so scarred by this point that he felt pressure that didn’t exist. Tough way to survive as a passer, though. In this situation, perhaps they could have called screen just to get the ball out – or an inside handoff to Thompson. Regardless, Griffin had options available underneath. The Lions took away the two deep routes – six defenders were at least 10 yards from the line of scrimmage. In this case, hit an underneath target and let them take the punishment. Griffin had zero shot at picking up a first down with his legs.

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I pretty much agree also. So do you see it getting any better for Griffin during the regular season?

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I pretty much agree also. So do you see it getting any better for Griffin during the regular season?

Of course. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, with a clean pocket and 3 seconds to throw you would have a totally different QB. With Trent in for Bozo and with Scherff's development I think that will happen. It sure didn't happen the other night. He didn't get 3 seconds to throw on any of his passes and on the one that was close to 3 seconds the defender was 2 yard in front of him batting down the pass.

This does NOT however mean I am convinced that he is the long term answer. His problems persist but we really don't know if he has progressed because he barely played in game 1 and had no chance in game 2. It is simply crazy to close the book on him based on Thursday night as you and many have already done.

 

[j_y19]

Of course. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, with a clean pocket and 3 seconds to throw you would have a totally different QB. He didn't get 3 seconds to throw on any of his passes and on the one that was close to 3 seconds the defender was 2 yard in front of him batting down the pass.

This does NOT however believe he is the long term answer. His problems persist but we really don't know if he has progressed because he barely played in game 1 and had no chance in game 2.

And this is where we disagree. He has to be able to do a basic side step to avoid one defender to give him additional time. I don't see the play of the OL dramatically improving (it will improve). What we saw was Griffin reverting back to his 2014 mistakes once pressure was applied. Stop looking down field, move into pressure, no real pre read of defenses to identify potential blitzes and schemes, taking off from a clean pocket because of gun shyness, and fumbling way too much. Oh yeah, getting injured on plays that breakdown. The guy is cooked. I don't see any changes during the regular season. I fully expect we will see more of this type of play until he is injured for the year and the skins owe him $16m next year, severely hampering our ability to sign others due to cap restrictions.

 

[j_y19]

Let me ask this. If you are an opposing DC and game planning for Griffin, what would the staple of your strategy? I'd bring max pressure on the guy consistently. Might he beat you once in a while? Maybe, but more than likely he will cough the ball up a couple of times and he gets banged abound like a rag doll. Don't expect him to have many pockets with 3 seconds to get rid of the ball.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

And this is where we disagree. He has to be able to do a basic side step to avoid one defender to give him additional time. I don't see the play of the OL dramatically improving (it will improve). What we saw was Griffin reverting back to his 2014 mistakes once pressure was applied. Stop looking down field, move into pressure, no real pre read of defenses to identify potential blitzes and schemes, taking off from a clean pocket because of gun shyness, and fumbling way too much. Oh yeah, getting injured on plays that breakdown. The guy is cooked. I don't see any changes during the regular season. I fully expect we will see more of this type of play until he is injured for the year and the skins owe him $16m next year, severely hampering our ability to sign others due to cap restrictions.

Go look at that breakdown again. Are you telling me replacing Willie Smith with Trent Williams won't make a huge difference? Smith was the main culprit on every bad play with the exception of the sack that Scherff gave up. Again I expect Scherff to improve dramatically and I don't expect to see Willie Smith ever again.

Of course Griffin needs to improve in the pocket. Again I'm not saying he is the answer, I'm saying judging him on Thursday night is stupid IMO. You may think that first sack was on Griffin, most think it was on the rookie. Could he have turned into Tony Romo and avoided the sack? Maybe but he ain't no Tony Romo, few are. Most QBs on that play get sacked IMO. To blame Griffin as much as Scherff for that play's result is again unfair IMO.

As for the last play where he got hurt no arguments, that was a horrible play by Griffin and just more of the same.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Let me ask this. If you are an opposing DC and game planning for Griffin, what would the staple of your strategy? I'd bring max pressure on the guy consistently. Might he beat you once in a while? Maybe, but more than likely he will cough the ball up a couple of times and he gets banged abound like a rag doll. Don't expect him to have many pockets with 3 seconds to get rid of the ball.

If they bring the house to get to him before 3 seconds the Redskins may have an answer for that, although you are right, that will be what they will be facing until they prove they can beat it. Again that was not the case the other night, they got to him with a standard front in less than 3 seconds thanks to Willie Smith.

 

[j_y19]

Go look at that breakdown again. Are you telling me replacing Willie Smith with Trent Williams won't make a huge difference?

Of course Griffin needs to improve in the pocket. Again I'm not saying he is the answer, I'm saying judging him on Thursday night is stupid IMO. You may think that first sack was on Griffin, the rest of the world apparently thinks it was on the rookie. COULD he have turned into Tony Romo? Doubtful. But most QBs on that play get sacked.

Of course that makes a difference. The question is CAN he improve in the pocket? I don't believe so. What we continue to see is what we will see in the future. I also disagree that most QBs get sacked on that play. Keim points it out in his breakdown. Griffin stepped left, into pressure. He steps right and avoids the pressure and buys a few more seconds. Most NFL QBs have the sense to step away from pressure innately, Griffin does not.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Of course that makes a difference. The question is CAN he improve in the pocket? I don't believe so. What we continue to see is what we will see in the future. I also disagree that most QBs get sacked on that play. Keim points it out in his breakdown. Griffin stepped left, into pressure. He steps right and avoids the pressure and buys a few more seconds. Most NFL QBs have the sense to step away from pressure innately, Griffin does not.

Again we don't know because he didn't have close to a pocket on Thursday. This is the rub, you see that game and conclude that this is who he is. I (and guys like Warner, Keim) see that game and understand we saw a QB who had no chance as he had no pocket. As for the play in question Kiem gave a "maybe" on the possibility of him escaping but you left out the key assessment, "tough to blame this one on the QB".

Again I'm not claiming he has good pocket presence. I'm saying he had no chance last game and nearly every other QB in the league would have had similar problems competing passes under that pressure. Do you actually disagree with this statement?

If Joe Flacco gets sacked on that play they are not blaming the QB, they are blaming the OL who got trucked right into the QB. But because it is RGIII you assess the play differently.

 

[deanpet21]

jy19 is right on target. RG3 doesn't know how to slide in the pocket like a Romo or Marino. This is what Cousins does best. You don't have to have speed to be an effective QB. Cousins just fits what Gruden wants to do. Yes he threw the INt's last year but the guy deserves a learning curve. ITs a shame that he wont be our starting QB this year. I believe we have a better chance to win if Cousins is QB1

 

[j_y19]

Again we don't know because he didn't have close to a pocket on Thursday. This is the rub, you see that game and conclude that this is who he is. I (and guys like Warner, Keim) see that game and understand we saw a QB who had no chance as he had no pocket. As for the play in question Kiem gave a "maybe" on the possibility of him escaping but you left out the key assessment, "tough to blame this one on the QB".

Again I'm not claiming he has good pocket presence. I'm saying he had no chance last game and nearly every other QB in the league would have had similar problems competing passes under that pressure. Do you actually disagree with this statement?

If Joe Flacco gets sacked on that play they are not blaming the QB, they are blaming the OL who got trucked right into the QB. But because it is RGIII you assess the play differently.

No, I conclude what he is by seeing him play this exact same way over the last 2 years. When pressure is applied, he reverts to his bad habits. Thursday night was just a continuation of that. Expecting different results from him at this point is futile. He does not have that innate sense to move away from pressure or to protect himself or the football.

One more point. The league trash bin is full of QBs that can perform in a clean pocket with 3+ seconds to find an open receiver. The ones that make it are the ones that can perform when shit breaks down.

 

[deanpet21]

That is right. Imagine if Gruden played KC at the end of last year he would have been more developed for this year. KC is the better QB there is no question about it.

 

[chillerdab]

Granted, I didn't see the game (highlights enough for me), but it looks to me that an equal amount of blame goes to RG3, and Gruden. Willie Smith should be cut.

If you have a qb that has awful pocket presence, as RG3 has, and he is getting pummeled behind your "starters" in preseason, then call 4-5 straight roll out passes so he can keep the defense honest, use his athleticism, and at least get a chance to make plays. That's all on Gruden.

As foe RGMe, Brian Mitchell said it best: "shut the frack up and play." You have awful pocket presence. You are too slight for the NFL. You hold onto the ball too long, run away from your protection, and fumble the ball entirely too much. Please work on SOMETHING this season. Any of the above. You choose.

 

[skinsdad62]

Of course. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, with a clean pocket and 3 seconds to throw you would have a totally different QB. With Trent in for Bozo and with Scherff's development I think that will happen. It sure didn't happen the other night. He didn't get 3 seconds to throw on any of his passes and on the one that was close to 3 seconds the defender was 2 yard in front of him batting down the pass.

This does NOT however mean I am convinced that he is the long term answer. His problems persist but we really don't know if he has progressed because he barely played in game 1 and had no chance in game 2. It is simply crazy to close the book on him based on Thursday night as you and many have already done.

this is false he had more snaps 18 then vs the lions 16

 

[skinz2winz]

Perhaps Cousins would have faired better? We don't know but I for one would like to see Cousins start against the Ravens this week. We all know his propensity for turnovers is almost a certain but perhaps he has learned something over an off season. You turn the ball over in this league, you don't play! I think RG3's biggest problem has been the porous offensive line to this point however, he does lack some key fundamental's most QB's instinctively have so learning that from the QB position is just plain difficult if you don't already posses it.
I would really like Cousins to have a fair shot with the 1's and get a start this week to see what he has learned. Multiple reports however have said he hasn't shown in practice enough to even warrant the promotion though.

 

[deanpet21]

IF this was a fair starting QB competition KC would be names the starter. But Synder and SM wasn't RG3 so its RG3 no matter how he plays.

 

[Breed]

It's what I've been saying too. I get it, Griffin has terrible pocket presence. He takes way more sacks than he should. But because that is his history everyone want to blame the sacks and hits he took on Thursday was on him and that's nonsense.

Again he had 2 seconds to throw, he did not run right into a blitzing linebacker as he has done in the past. At worst he held the ball for 1/10th of a second too long on the incompletion to Grant, on the play fake he MAY have been able to let it go but we couldn't see the receiver to know if he was open or covered. And again it was 2 seconds on that play before the DE climbed on top of him.

Because of his history everyone wants to say half the sacks and hits were on him and I just don't think that's fair.

His second fumble and why he got hurt in two separate parts of his body on a single play was all vintage Griffin.