Kobes Quest For Greatness

[DJ Fieri]

Yes and no. Kobe has the same attitude MJ had. Basically, if the guys on his team are playing well, he plays team ball. I they don't seem to have it that night, he's going to try to win it by himself.

The difference that I see is that MJ eventually learned to go back to his teammates throughout the game to see if he was going to get some help. If things changed and he was getting help, he'd play team ball for the rest of the game. If not, he'd go back to trying to win it himself and then try again later.

Kobe doesn't seem to have that mastered. If his teammates aren't helping, he might go back to them one more time during the game, but that's it. If he's still not getting help, no one else is getting the ball.

Very well said.

 

[DJ Fieri]

... 47 percent rounded up, but never actually reaching .470. That may be a quibble, but it's one with a point. Besides, as I noted, Jordan was way above .470 overall as a Chicago Bull (.505).

Jordan may have gone outside the triangle at times, yes, but let me put it this way: he played with 'a' flow, at least. He did not hold the ball for a lengthy duration or go through a bunch of show dribbles while the the defense loaded up on him, and he made the game simple. And as Red Auerbach used to say, basketball is a "simple game." When you make it seem complicated, as Bryant often does, your efficiency tends to suffer.

Kobe also played the majority of his career on the perimeter while MJ started out as a post player and eventually became an occasional outside shooter. He still played (for the most part) within 14-15 feet of the basket. He has made 581 of 1,778 3-pointers.

Kobe has dunked and scored inside, but he's primarily been a perimeter player. He's made 1,666 of 4,987 3's. He's taken almost 3 times as many 3's.

 

[HammerDown]

 

[GMATCa]

Kobe also played the majority of his career on the perimeter while MJ started out as a post player and eventually became an occasional outside shooter. He still played (for the most part) within 14-15 feet of the basket. He has made 581 of 1,778 3-pointers.

Kobe has dunked and scored inside, but he's primarily been a perimeter player. He's made 1,666 of 4,987 3's. He's taken almost 3 times as many 3's.

... not sure where this idea comes from. If anything, Jordan played out of the post more later in his career, when he had built up his body and when he did not slash to the basket from the outside quite as frequently as he had in his younger days.

And Jordan was more than an "occasional" outside shooter; he just did not jack up threes indiscriminately like Bryant. But trust me, Jordan hit tons of jumpers outside fifteen feet ...

 

[trojanfan12]

... not sure where this idea comes from. If anything, Jordan played out of the post more later in his career, when he had built up his body and when he did not slash to the basket from the outside quite as frequently as he had in his younger days.

And Jordan was more than an "occasional" outside shooter; he just did not jack up threes indiscriminately like Bryant. But trust me, Jordan hit tons of jumpers outside fifteen feet ...

I think the difference that TLF was pointing out was that most of MJ's scoring was in the paint. That's not where most of Kobe's points have come from.

Early in his career, most of MJ's points came from his ability to beat anyone off the dribble, get to the paint and finish at the rim. Later in his career, he got most of his points from playing more of the traditional setting up in the post and backing his man down style. He also scored a little more from the perimeter as he got older because he couldn't just blow by people any more, so he developed a very good mid-range jumper. He was never much more than an average 3 point shooter, but I expect that was more due to the fact that the 3 pointer wasn't emphasized back then, like it is now. Plus, the Bulls had guys like Paxson and Kerr to handle that. But he did have a way of hitting them when needed. It would have been foolish for MJ to be trying to get most of his points from the perimeter, when the Bulls had that covered.

You also have to remember that MJ never played with a dominant center, so it was both necessary and possible for him to get into the paint to do the bulk of his scoring. Kobe played with Shaq and then Gasol and Bynum (back when Bynum could actually play). It would have been foolish for Kobe to be trying to get most of his points in the paint when the Lakers already had players who could handle that job quite well.

 

[GMATCa]

I think the difference that TLF was pointing out was that most of MJ's scoring was in the paint. That's not where most of Kobe's points have come from.

Early in his career, most of MJ's points came from his ability to beat anyone off the dribble, get to the paint and finish at the rim. Later in his career, he got most of his points from playing more of the traditional setting up in the post and backing his man down style. He also scored a little more from the perimeter as he got older because he couldn't just blow by people any more, so he developed a very good mid-range jumper. He was never much more than an average 3 point shooter, but I expect that was more due to the fact that the 3 pointer wasn't emphasized back then, like it is now. Plus, the Bulls had guys like Paxson and Kerr to handle that. But he did have a way of hitting them when needed. It would have been foolish for MJ to be trying to get most of his points from the perimeter, when the Bulls had that covered.

You also have to remember that MJ never played with a dominant center, so it was both necessary and possible for him to get into the paint to do the bulk of his scoring. Kobe played with Shaq and then Gasol and Bynum (back when Bynum could actually play). It would have been foolish for Kobe to be trying to get most of his points in the paint when the Lakers already had players who could handle that job quite well.

... good as Gasol, and to some extent Bynum, happened to be, I would not consider either a "dominant center" (Gasol is one of the most skilled big men of all-time, but never quite dominant). Bryant constituted the first option on those teams, and the triangle, as I'm sure you know, allows for multiple post-ups in multiple areas of the floor, as opposed to fixed locations.

And consider that in '04-'05, when Bryant was playing without Shaq for the first time (and before Bynum, let alone Gasol, had arrived), he substantially increased his three-point shooting volume, averaging a stunning 5.9 three-point attempts per game (despite a mediocre .339 percentage, below the league average). Moreover, Bryant's three-point shooting did not reflect an unprecedented level of overall shooting attempts on his part, for he had twice averaged more field goal attempts than he did that season (20.1). 29.2 percent of his field goal attempts that year came from beyond the arc, compared to 15.5 percent over the preceding eight seasons with Shaq. In other words, O'Neal's departure caused Bryant to become much more perimeter-oriented (as defined, in this case, by three-point attempts), as Kobe virtually doubled the share of his shots that he fired from beyond the arc. In other words, O'Neal's absence removed the last major check on Bryant's self-indulgence, and what becomes clear is that Kobe's perimeter tendencies were not a product of Shaq's place in the post.

Phil Jackson's return to the sidelines the next season, '05-'06, did not change matters. For the second straight year, Bryant—freed from the supposed burden of a significant big man in the post, as Bynum was just an eighteen-year old rookie who hardly played—established a new career-high in three-point field goal attempts per game, this time checking in at 6.5 (and again, his percentage proved mediocre at .347, falling below the league average). In '06-'07, the last full-year before Gasol arrived—and with Bynum still a teenager and a long way from being an All-Star center—Bryant averaged 5.2 three-point attempts, again way more than he ever averaged while playing with Shaq (and again shooting a mediocre percentage at .344, below the league average). Thus, again, Kobe's perimeter tendencies did not derive from the presence of superior centers or big men in the post.

Jordan really scored from all over the floor except from beyond the arc, as he was only a good three-point shooter in certain seasons. (Actually, the same has been true of Bryant, but unlike the disciplined Jordan, he has launched high volumes of threes regardless of his percentage, which has usually been mediocre or subpar.) But Jordan did shoot a lot of outside two-point jumpers, and he scored in every which way. I mean, he could (and did) run around off down-screens like Reggie Miller to free himself for jumpers (just not threes, usually).

Sure, Jordan could get to the rim and score out of the post better than Bryant, but he shot plenty of jumpers from sixteen to twenty-three feet. The difference between him and Bryant came in how concise he could make his movements into those shots, and how Jordan eschewed the twenty-five-to-twenty-eight footers that Bryant often heaves up there at low percentages that contradict the occasional hot streaks that he enjoys from downtown.

Here is a good example of a Jordan shooting exhibition versus Seattle in 1997:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuryGoKXT-Q

I think that the point that we're all making is that Jordan used the "middle-in" game much more than Bryant. My point is that no one has forced Bryant to shoot high volumes of threes at low percentages; he could have played the game with more discretion and efficiency, as Jordan did, but he chose not to do. Even when Bryant was playing with Shaq, he did not need to launch as many questionable perimeter shots. For instance, see Tony Parker playing with Duncan (in Duncan's prime) and Dwyane Wade playing with Shaq (even if O'Neal was no longer as dominant by that time).

To be sure, Bryant is a significantly better pure shooter than Parker and Wade, but that is where discipline—rather than self-indulgence—becomes imperative.

 

[Inimical]

Third all-time is just 62 points away.

 

[DJ Fieri]

... not sure where this idea comes from. If anything, Jordan played out of the post more later in his career, when he had built up his body and when he did not slash to the basket from the outside quite as frequently as he had in his younger days.

And Jordan was more than an "occasional" outside shooter; he just did not jack up threes indiscriminately like Bryant. But trust me, Jordan hit tons of jumpers outside fifteen feet ...

Early in his career he was known as a dunker and played very close to the basket. He only attempted 52 3-pointer's his rookie season.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Who made a higher % of 3-pointers, Kobe or MJ?

 

[trojanfan12]

... good as Gasol, and to some extent Bynum, happened to be, I would not consider either a "dominant center" (Gasol is one of the most skilled big men of all-time, but never quite dominant). Bryant constituted the first option on those teams, and the triangle, as I'm sure you know, allows for multiple post-ups in multiple areas of the floor, as opposed to fixed locations.

I think that the point that we're all making is that Jordan used the "middle-in" game much more than Bryant. My point is that no one has forced Bryant to shoot high volumes of threes at low percentages; he could have played the game with more discretion and efficiency, as Jordan did, but he chose not to do. Even when Bryant was playing with Shaq, he did not need to launch as many questionable perimeter shots. For instance, see Tony Parker playing with Duncan (in Duncan's prime) and Dwyane Wade playing with Shaq (even if O'Neal was no longer as dominant by that time).

To be sure, Bryant is a significantly better pure shooter than Parker and Wade, but that is where discipline—rather than self-indulgence—becomes imperative.

Dominant is a relative term. At the time, Bynum was considered either the best or 2nd best center in the league (depending on whether one favored Dwight's defense or Bynum's offense) and Pau was arguably the 2nd best PF in the league. Bynum wasn't making anyone forget about Shaq, Kareem or Wilt and Gasol was certainly no Malone or even Duncan, but they were both among the best or even the best at their positions. The point is, with the Lakers, Kobe had players who could score in the paint where MJ never did with the Bulls.

I agree 100% on the discipline part of Kobe's game. Like I said earlier, as much as we love what he has done for the franchise, there isn't a Lakers fan alive that hasn't yelled for him to stop shooting or at some of the shots he takes. I think part of the problem is that he hits just enough of those to keep him doing it. Kind of like slot machines in Vegas. You hit just often enough to keep putting coins in.

 

[HammerDown]

"overrated" - bksballer

 

[lakersrule]

I think Kobe goes iso for the Jordan passing shot. Maybe a little elbow jumper or a patented baseline fadeaway. I don't think a teammate will be getting an assist.

 

[Retroram52]

And then Bynum found weed, TJF12.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Meh. If you aren't first you're last...

 

[Inimical]

Kobe Bryant is 30 points away from passing the greatest of all time, in scoring.

 

[lakersrule]

Is tonight the night? We'll see if he comes out firing away or starts off in playmaker mode. Sunday at Minnesota is the more likely night.

 

[trojanfan12]

Is tonight the night? We'll see if he comes out firing away or starts off in playmaker mode. Sunday at Minnesota is the more likely night.

It's going to be interesting to say the least. He'll get it either tonight or Sunday which begs the question: Does he pull out all the stops and go for it tonight so he can do it at Staples in front of the home crowd? Or does he just play his game, see what happens and get it on the road in Minny on Sunday?

 

[DJ Fieri]

Is tonight the night? We'll see if he comes out firing away or starts off in playmaker mode. Sunday at Minnesota is the more likely night.

I agree with this.

 

[lakersrule]

It's going to be interesting to say the least. He'll get it either tonight or Sunday which begs the question: Does he pull out all the stops and go for it tonight so he can do it at Staples in front of the home crowd? Or does he just play his game, see what happens and get it on the road in Minny on Sunday?

They are @SAS tonight. I'm sure LT will announce the milestone during next game at Staples so the crowd can applaud him.

 

[lakersrule]