Kobes Quest For Greatness

[Inimical]

Kobe Bryant enters the 2014-15 season with 31,700 career points. He sits at 4th on the all-time list, behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (38,387 points), Karl Malone (36,928 points) and Michael Jordan (32,292 points).

Kobe needs to score 592 points this season to catch Jordan. If he averages 13.83 points this season — his average last season — then he’ll pass Jordan on January 21 in the Lakers’ game at New Orleans. If he averages 20 points, he’ll reach the mark the day after Christmas at Dallas. If he maintains his career average of 25.46 points per game, then he’ll pass Jordan on December 14 at Minnesota. And finally, if he puts up 81 points per game this season (because, well, why not?), then he’ll overtake Jordan for third on the all-time list on November 12 when the Lakers visit the Pelicans.

Against Houston tonight he scored 19.

 

[Inimical]

Kobe Bryant is averaging 23.7 points per game this season. At this rate he would pass Micheal Jordan for 3rd all time in the 25th game of the season against Indiana. Kobe says that he shocked himself after his reverse jam, reiterated that hes "Old", and even though he feels strong he didnt know he had "that" in him.

 

[Inimical]

Kobe Bryant is averaging 27.6 points on 40.2 percent (49 of 122) shooting from the field through his first five games. He scored 39 points against the Suns last night and is on pace to surpass Michael Jordan for 3rd all time on the NBA scoring list in the 21st game of the season against New Orleans in Los Angeles.

Kobe mainly talks about how many minutes he played, and how many shots he took.

 

[Wamu]

No mention of how many more games it'll Kobe to pass MJ on the all time scoring list?

 

[HammerDown]

Kareem and The Mailman are completely safe. And to think that The Mailman could have played at least two more seasons.

 

[trojanfan12]

Kareem and The Mailman are completely safe. And to think that The Mailman could have played at least two more seasons.

I think Kareem is safe, but depending on his health, I could see Kobe catching the Mailman if he decides to play beyond next year.

He's obviously going to catch MJ this year and he can get close to the Mailman next year, but I think he'll have to come back for one more season to actually catch him.

 

[Inimical]

A shame Kobe went down at all, Karl would definitely be on the menu. Maybe who knows if he never got injured what level he would be playing at today, you really never know if Kareem could have been possible.

 

[Inimical]

No mention of how many more games it'll Kobe to pass MJ on the all time scoring list?

Yeah i typed it bro.

 

[Inimical]

Kobe Bryant is averaging 25.4 points a game on 36.7% shooting from the field through his first 9 games. He is on pace to surpass Micheal Jordan for 3rd on the All-Time scoring list in the 23rd game of the season in San Antonio.

 

[Retroram52]

If Kobe can stay healthy, this would be the year to make that assault on the records because nobody else on the present roster is going to shoot the damn ball and make the shots.

 

[DJ Fieri]

If Kobe can stay healthy, this would be the year to make that assault on the records because nobody else on the present roster is going to shoot the damn ball and make the shots.

I think he's only shooting so much because he knows he's the best volume scorer they have. I think he'll pass more once Young returns because if there's one thing Swagg can do is score. He'll help take some of the scoring burden off his shoulders. I expect that duo to be looking for each other a lot.

 

[Chilipepper]

I'm a big KOBE fan but he has a major flaw by not playing team ball.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm a big KOBE fan but he has a major flaw by not playing team ball.

Yes and no. Kobe has the same attitude MJ had. Basically, if the guys on his team are playing well, he plays team ball. I they don't seem to have it that night, he's going to try to win it by himself.

The difference that I see is that MJ eventually learned to go back to his teammates throughout the game to see if he was going to get some help. If things changed and he was getting help, he'd play team ball for the rest of the game. If not, he'd go back to trying to win it himself and then try again later.

Kobe doesn't seem to have that mastered. If his teammates aren't helping, he might go back to them one more time during the game, but that's it. If he's still not getting help, no one else is getting the ball.

 

[GMATCa]

Yes and no. Kobe has the same attitude MJ had. Basically, if the guys on his team are playing well, he plays team ball. I they don't seem to have it that night, he's going to try to win it by himself.

The difference that I see is that MJ eventually learned to go back to his teammates throughout the game to see if he was going to get some help. If things changed and he was getting help, he'd play team ball for the rest of the game. If not, he'd go back to trying to win it himself and then try again later.

Kobe doesn't seem to have that mastered. If his teammates aren't helping, he might go back to them one more time during the game, but that's it. If he's still not getting help, no one else is getting the ball.

Well, the difference is also that even if Jordan was dominating the offense shots-wise (as he often did), he played within the flow of the offense rather than outside of it. He was not a ball-stopper, he made his moves and released his shots very quickly, he did not over-dribble, he was more explosive at thrusting toward the rim (more explosive at thirty-five than Bryant was at twenty-five), and he excelled at moving without the ball and running off down-screens to free himself for jumpers and backdoor layups and dunks. If he did not have a good shot, he would move the ball rapidly and then move his body to get the ball back in a better position to shoot.

For all these reasons, Jordan shot much better percentages from the field (.505 for his career in Chicago, whereas Bryant has never shot .470 from the field in nineteen NBA seasons) and constituted a more efficient scorer. Jordan would make the occasional jaw-dropping, gravity-defying shot where he angled his body between defenders, but he rarely attempted bad shots and he rarely forced shots; that's why he proved so efficient. Bryant is the opposite in that regard and he often stops the ball.

So their strategic attitudes may have been similar, but their 'game within the game' tactical approaches proved quite different.

 

[trojanfan12]

Well, the difference is also that even if Jordan was dominating the offense shots-wise (as he often did), he played within the flow of the offense rather than outside of it. He was not a ball-stopper, he made his moves and released his shots very quickly, he did not over-dribble, he was more explosive at thrusting toward the rim (more explosive at thirty-five than Bryant was at twenty-five), and he excelled at moving without the ball and running off down-screens to free himself for jumpers and backdoor layups and dunks. If he did not have a good shot, he would move the ball rapidly and then move his body to get the ball back in a better position to shoot.

For all these reasons, Jordan shot much better percentages from the field (.505 for his career in Chicago, whereas Bryant has never shot .470 from the field in nineteen NBA seasons) and constituted a more efficient scorer. Jordan would make the occasional jaw-dropping, gravity-defying shot where he angled his body between defenders, but he rarely attempted bad shots and he rarely forced shots; that's why he proved so efficient. Bryant is the opposite in that regard and he often stops the ball.

So their strategic attitudes may have been similar, but their 'game within the game' tactical approaches proved quite different.

Phil Jackson disagrees with you on the bolded. He has said that MJ often went outside of the flow of the offense for the same reason Kobe does it, because it's not working. The biggest difference that I see is simply that MJ was much better at going back to his teammates throughout the game. This, at least kept the defense honest which meant he didn't have to attempt the number of "gravity defying" shots and forced shots that Kobe has/does.

Additionally, Kobe hit 47% 3 times in his career ('99-'00, '01-'02 and '08-'09), not as many as he would have if he learned the patience that MJ had though.

 

[GMATCa]

Phil Jackson disagrees with you on the bolded. He has said that MJ often went outside of the flow of the offense for the same reason Kobe does it, because it's not working. The biggest difference that I see is simply that MJ was much better at going back to his teammates throughout the game. This, at least kept the defense honest which meant he didn't have to attempt the number of "gravity defying" shots and forced shots that Kobe has/does.

Additionally, Kobe hit 47% 3 times in his career ('99-'00, '01-'02 and '08-'09), not as many as he would have if he learned the patience that MJ had though.

... 47 percent rounded up, but never actually reaching .470. That may be a quibble, but it's one with a point. Besides, as I noted, Jordan was way above .470 overall as a Chicago Bull (.505).

Jordan may have gone outside the triangle at times, yes, but let me put it this way: he played with 'a' flow, at least. He did not hold the ball for a lengthy duration or go through a bunch of show dribbles while the the defense loaded up on him, and he made the game simple. And as Red Auerbach used to say, basketball is a "simple game." When you make it seem complicated, as Bryant often does, your efficiency tends to suffer.

 

[trojanfan12]

... 47 percent rounded up, but never actually reaching .470. That may be a quibble, but it's one with a point. Besides, as I noted, Jordan was way above .470 overall as a Chicago Bull (.505).

Jordan may have gone outside the triangle at times, yes, but let me put it this way: he played with 'a' flow, at least. He did not hold the ball for a lengthy duration or go through a bunch of show dribbles while the the defense loaded up on him, and he made the game simple. And as Red Auerbach used to say, basketball is a "simple game." When you make it seem complicated, as Bryant often does, your efficiency tends to suffer.

I think we're both saying essentially the same thing, only with different words. MJ was more efficient than Kobe, largely because he did a better job of picking and choosing when to try to win the game himself. He also learned a patience that Kobe never has learned.

 

[GMATCa]

I think we're both saying essentially the same thing, only with different words. MJ was more efficient than Kobe, largely because he did a better job of picking and choosing when to try to win the game himself. He also learned a patience that Kobe never has learned.

A good example can be seen in the fourth quarter of Game Six of the 1993 NBA Finals, in Chicago's first possession after the 12:00 mark of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWQ2OSDIMcM

(The visual quality is pretty bad, but it's good enough to see what I'm talking about.)

Jordan brings the ball past the timeline and starts to back Kevin Johnson down to the three-point arc in an "iso" situation. But K.J. is defending him aggressively and not giving Jordan any air space. Rather than trying to create his shot under duress, Jordan gives the ball up as the Bulls run the triangle on the left side, drifts down in the direction of the baseline, and then suddenly pops back out to the perimeter to receive the ball in the triple-threat position. K.J. has followed him all the way, but now he is back on his heels a little. Jordan thus enjoys a tiny bit of breathing space, and after two jab steps to create some rhythm and exploit his spatial leverage, he fires in a twenty-three foot jumper from just inside the arc.

Jordan and Bryant could play "hero ball" better than anyone else in their respective eras, but Jordan understood that even if you are great at playing "hero ball," you still want to break out the spectacular, mind-boggling shots as rarely as possible because they are low-percentage shots by definition. In general, you want to make the game clean and efficient, not just statistically, but in terms of your physical actions and methods (efficient actions and methods tending, of course, to yield statistical efficiency as well).

 

[GMATCa]

And of course, on Chicago's final possession of that game (and the series), Jordan—again under defensive pressure from Kevin Johnson—gave the ball up early, even though his teammates were scoreless in the fourth quarter. And this time, he never needed to receive the ball back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaQhSN3maA0

 

[trojanfan12]

A good example can be seen in the fourth quarter of Game Six of the 1993 NBA Finals, in Chicago's first possession after the 12:00 mark of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWQ2OSDIMcM

(The visual quality is pretty bad, but it's good enough to see what I'm talking about.)

Jordan brings the ball past the timeline and starts to back Kevin Johnson down to the three-point arc in an "iso" situation. But K.J. is defending him aggressively and not giving Jordan any air space. Rather than trying to create his shot under duress, Jordan gives the ball up as the Bulls run the triangle on the left side, drifts down in the direction of the baseline, and then suddenly pops back out to the perimeter to receive the ball in the triple-threat position. K.J. has followed him all the way, but now he is back on his heels a little. Jordan thus enjoys a tiny bit of breathing space, and after two jab steps to create some rhythm and exploit his spatial leverage, he fires in a twenty-three foot jumper from just inside the arc.

Jordan and Bryant could play "hero ball" better than anyone else in their respective eras, but Jordan understood that even if you are great at playing "hero ball," you still want to break out the spectacular, mind-boggling shots as rarely as possible because they are low-percentage shots by definition. In general, you want to make the game clean and efficient, not just statistically, but in terms of your physical actions and methods (efficient actions and methods tending, of course, to yield statistical efficiency as well).

Agree 100%. As great as Kobe has been throughout his career, I can't help but think how much more he may have accomplished had he learned what MJ eventually did re: hero ball. That, imo, is the difference and why Kobe eventually faded out of the GOAT conversation. Now that he's coming down to the end of his career, if he had learned that, there would likely be ALOT of MJ or Kobe as GOAT convo's going on.

Believe me, as much as we appreciate what he has done for the team, there isn't a Lakers fan on earth that hasn't yelled: "Kobe!! Stop shooting and pass the ball" at least a few times a season.