John Wall to the Phoenix Suns?

[tlance]

what you dont think Butler is going to get the same contract?

thats why he wants out of minnesota via trade- so someone will give him the 5 year 190. And hes older, and has more miles

Butler will defintely get the same contract.

Thing, is, some players (LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Davis) etc. are worth every penny and you feel good about it when your team signs that deal. Guys like Butler and Wall absolutely command those dollars on the open market, but you feel a little bit sick to your stomach when your team actually pulls the trigger on it.

Just because they will get that contract doesn't mean they are a good value at that price.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Butler will defintely get the same contract.

Thing, is, some players (LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Davis) etc. are worth every penny and you feel good about it when your team signs that deal. Guys like Butler and Wall absolutely command those dollars on the open market, but you feel a little bit sick to your stomach when your team actually pulls the trigger on it.

Just because they will get that contract doesn't mean they are a good value at that price.

id without a doubt take the guy who is 2 years younger, who has a more diverse skill set, and doesnt have a ton of thibs miles on him.

both guys are, to say the least, not exactly great locker room guys, but id like to see Wall on a team where he isnt relied upon and has a real roster around him.

Beale and Porter are solid players but Beale is mis-casted as a #2 and Porter is no #3 on any team that has aspirations of getting to a conference finals.

 

[WiggyRuss]

plus, Wall would have only 4 years left after this year unless I am mistaken, while Butler would have 5 (after he presumably signs a 5 year deal after this year)

Wall- shorter contract, younger, less miles.

Plus I think Wall would do well if he had a lead dog with him and he could settle in as part of a 1-2 punch, and not have to carry a team.

Butler is just an asshole. A talented asshole that can play D and shoot a 3, but an aging, thibs miles, asshole.

 

[WiggyRuss]

plus people have to just re think how they think of these deals

its about % of the cap more so than the number. Dont be thrown off by sticker shock- it doesnt matter.

A few years ago the cap was still in the 60's. A couple years from now the cap will be in near 120.

Kobe was making 24 million a year or whatever when the cap was like 65 million. Thats OVER a third of the cap.

Wall will be making about a third of the cap. its the same thing.

 

[tlance]

plus people have to just re think how they think of these deals

its about % of the cap more so than the number. Dont be thrown off by sticker shock- it doesnt matter.

A few years ago the cap was still in the 60's. A couple years from now the cap will be in near 120.

Kobe was making 24 million a year or whatever when the cap was like 65 million. Thats OVER a third of the cap.

Wall will be making about a third of the cap. its the same thing.

You aren't wrong with anything that you said.

But, the problem with the max deal system is that the truly elite players are making roughly the same as the second and third tier guys.

Yes, I know the supermax affords teams the ability to pay even more.

Still though, paying 30% of the cap for a player like Wall or Butler is not nearly the same as paying 30% to LeBron.

 

[WiggyRuss]

You aren't wrong with anything that you said.

But, the problem with the max deal system is that the truly elite players are making roughly the same as the second and third tier guys.

Yes, I know the supermax affords teams the ability to pay even more.

Still though, paying 30% of the cap for a player like Wall or Butler is not nearly the same as paying 30% to LeBron.

of course not but there are only so many LeBron's. If you cant get a top 5 or 10 player that is, whatever your definition of "worth it" - then giving that same deal, to a top 20 guy is pretty much what you have to do.

KEvin Love will be making 30 a year- which by no means is peanuts, but its also surely not outrageous and pretty much a market rate. I would be happy to see the Cavs keep him, but there are plenty of teams with cap room this summer and not all of them are going to get the FA or two they want. MULTIPLE teams that dont get a Butler or Kawhi or even Middleton or KEmba will be ringing the Cavs this summer I guarantee you.

 

[tlance]

of course not but there are only so many LeBron's. If you cant get a top 5 or 10 player that is, whatever your definition of "worth it" - then giving that same deal, to a top 20 guy is pretty much what you have to do.

KEvin Love will be making 30 a year- which by no means is peanuts, but its also surely not outrageous and pretty much a market rate. I would be happy to see the Cavs keep him, but there are plenty of teams with cap room this summer and not all of them are going to get the FA or two they want. MULTIPLE teams that dont get a Butler or Kawhi or even Middleton or KEmba will be ringing the Cavs this summer I guarantee you.

But that is why Wall's, and even Love's trade value is not what you think it is.

Because they are not bargains due to their contracts. They are not bad contracts, but both have the potential to be by the end of their current deals.

Forget the player's ability for a second. Wall is very good. But his trade value is probably comparable to a top 50 player making $20 million because he is on the lower end of the spectrum of players who command full max deals.

 

[WiggyRuss]

But that is why Wall's, and even Love's trade value is not what you think it is.

Because they are not bargains due to their contracts. They are not bad contracts, but both have the potential to be by the end of their current deals.

Forget the player's ability for a second. Wall is very good. But his trade value is probably comparable to a top 50 player making $20 million because he is on the lower end of the spectrum of players who command full max deals.

I think you are wrong.

Everyone is trying to get a top 15-20 guy which Wall has the potential to be. If you have one you are trying to keep it. If you dont you are trying to get it.

Anyone can get a top 50. Less than half, WAY less than half the teams in the league have a top 15 guy. Jabari Parker just got 20 a year- GAllo gets 20 a year- id much rather have Love at 30.

 

[tlance]

I think you are wrong.

Everyone is trying to get a top 15-20 guy which Wall has the potential to be. If you have one you are trying to keep it. If you dont you are trying to get it.

Anyone can get a top 50. Less than half, WAY less than half the teams in the league have a top 15 guy. Jabari Parker just got 20 a year- GAllo gets 20 a year- id much rather have Love at 30.

A top 15 guy doesn't get you jack unless you already have a top 5 guy, or multiple other top 20 guys.

Not sure Wall still is a top 15 guy. He is close, but I am not sure. And Jabari and Gallo aren't top 50 guys.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Take away the protections, then great.

But I think you are overestimating Wall's trade value. Because he isn't a superstar, yet he is on a superstar contract.

Also, I am not trading Wall unless I am also trading Beal and Porter. Tear it all down. Return future assets and young prospects on rookie deals for the first two, take a bad contract and a first for Porter.

What also needs to be factored into all this maneuvering is that the Wizards pick would be top 5 for the next 2 years almost for sure.

I don't think that anything remotely close to this will occur. However if it did as a Wizards fan I would not necessarily be opposed to it with one major caveat. They MUST fire Grunfeld prior to making any of these moves (especially the draft picks).

If you are a Wizards fan then know that if this guy is in charge he will find a way to fuck this up! Grunfeld is the problem - not Wall, Beal or anyone else. If they find a competent GM I believe that they can very likely find a way to be truly successful long term. Unfortunately Leonsis is very loyal & this has likely kept him from firing this clown.

So IMO this team is going to continue to have issues if they don't totally revamp the front office. We will see.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Washington Wizards draft history - Wikipedia

Proof the Grunfeld sucks & would screw up just about any draft picks. He took the GM position in 2003. Look at their picks since that time. The only ones that have really contributed in any way were very high picks (Wall, Beal, Porter) that anyone could have made. Their overall drafting during his tenure is one of the worst in sports.

Some picks were also traded for players that didn't contribute a lot for more than a short period of time. During this time they passed on many other players who went on to be stars for other teams. What makes anyone think that if this guy traded Wall, Porter & others for picks that he would use the picks wisely? He wouldn't period. He should have been fired a very long time ago.