Jim Thome and the Hall of Fame!

[Ginger]

Ok, just seeing a piece by Kurkjian where he argues that Thome has Hall of Fame credentials. I am inclined to agree that he was a terrific player and should be a Hall of Famer not because he hit 600 home runs but because he was friggin' good for a long period of time.

However, Kurkjian writes this crappy line:

"Thome's numbers came without flair, flash or controversy, especially involving steroids."

Uh, Tim are you sure? Weren't you guys on ESPN the one's promoting how PURE A-Rod was and how great it would be when he passed Bonds and then the home run record would be clean again? :ss: Oooops. How did that work out for you? And then you guys told us it was only because of Texas. Clowns!

Now I am not saying that Thome used steroids but if everybody else is guilty by association why is Thome all of a sudden clean but so many others are dirty. And why is every player that the writers don't like personally all thrown in that mix as well?

Now frankly, I've always been a big Thome fan and thought he was vastly underrated as a player. I just think that Kurkjian should refrain from going on these little pious tangents and quit propping up people as saints or sinners when in the end none of it is going to matter.

 

[ritari330]

He doesn't look like the typical guy who used PEDs though. He looks like the same guy now as he did 10 years ago. Plus the people who are guilty by association were mentioned somewhere, either in the Mitchell Report, by Canseco or some other way. JMO

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

I think Thome is clean just as I feel Griffey was clean. I don't think every player of the era used them and they all should be looked at individually. It seems that the consensus by most people around the game believe Thome to be a clean player and that's good enough for me.

I agree completely with you regarding Kurkjian and these other holier-than-thou asses in the media. They need to shut their mouth and just report the story because their credibility is no better than the McGwire's and Sosa's of the world. They all turned a blind eye to steroid use when guys were breaking home run records and MLB was drawing record fans and these same media types were making money selling advertising for their papers and magazines. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the bullshit surrounding ped's only now after the fact. I don't think our federal government has any business being involved and wasting taxpayers dollars (that we can't afford to waste) either.

Okay, sorry, got off topic a little here. I think Thome should get into the HOF. A lot of people dismiss him because of lack of ASG's (which is a bogus argument, imo) and no dominating seasons (MVP shares and such) and of course now the sabermetrics segment will break everything down and say his WAR or something else isn't good enough or he struck out too much. The fact is the guy has a lot of numbers across the board that say he's a HOF'er and it would be an injustice if he isn't voted in if not on his first year of eligibility, no later than his second.

 

[calsnowskier]

When I think of the Hall of Fame, I start by asking one question...

Was this guy ELITE?

At no point in Thome's career did I ever consider him one of the top small handful of 1B in the game. He has put up up disgusting numbers, sure, but look at the generic (and HIGHLY imperfect) comparative hardware he has accumulated throughout his career...

Top 10 in the MVP 4 times. Never higher than 4th.
5 All-Star Teams.
One Silver Slugger.
40% of his games played were not in the field (DH / PH).
0 World Series rings.

Does he belong IN the discussion for HOF? Sure. I have no problem with the discussion.

Does he get my vote? Sadly, no. He barely misses out by my criteria, but he is a member in HIGH standing of the Hall of Very Good.

 

[powerchord86]

Thome belongs in the HOF.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

At no point in Thome's career did I ever consider him one of the top small handful of 1B in the game. He has put up up disgusting numbers, sure, but look at the generic (and HIGHLY imperfect) comparative hardware he has accumulated throughout his career...

Top 10 in the MVP 4 times. Never higher than 4th.
5 All-Star Teams.
One Silver Slugger.
40% of his games played were not in the field (DH / PH).
0 World Series rings.

Does he belong IN the discussion for HOF? Sure. I have no problem with the discussion.

Does he get my vote? Sadly, no. He barely misses out by my criteria, but he is a member in HIGH standing of the Hall of Very Good.

Calsnowskier, I respect your opinion and am not arguing it. You have your criteria and that is fine. My only beef is with some of those things that you mentioned ( and I did see the disclaimer about them being imperfect).

First, the lack of MVP votes-I always have trouble with this one because it often is too biased by the BBWAA and many bad choices have been made. Also, Thome played on some teams that had other guys in the MVP discussion which hurt him.
The AS team- The ASG is a complete and utter useless joke in all pro sports but especially in baseball. I can never use it as a criteria for a players standing because year after year fans vote awful, managers load up with there own guys or some guy comes out of nowhere to have a great first half only to disappear (read:Ubaldo Jimenez/2010 or Raul Ibanez/2009) the second half.
The silver slugger- I have to give this one to you with just a slight disclaimer. Again, this is an award voted on and is limited to one per position and players will often get left out because of other players having sometimes only slightly better years. When Thome was at 1b in the 90's in Cleveland, he was up against Thomas in Chicago, Delgado in Toronto etc,etc. 1b is always one of the hardest positions to stand out because there are always so many big sluggers playing there.(this also goes back to ASG's, there are always at least one or two 1B left off because of sheer numbers).
World Series rings- I can't judge a player based on what is strictly a team accomplishment. The lack of championships shouldn't penalize a great player any more than having been on a bunch of winners somehow makes him more worthy. Andy Pettitte, Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neal and all those other Yankees shouldn't get more votes just because they were on a dynasty. The HOF is about individual achievement and a total body of work over a long time, not being fortunate enough to win championships.

 

[tech_iceman]

Pete Rose deserves it more....

 

[ritari330]

One argument I heard about Thome and his lack of awards and whatnot was the guys he was against in voting were on roids, no question. Now most believe he is completely clean, but if you dont this argument wouldnt have much of an effect. He was over shadowed by players who were on roids. Had no one been taking them, who knows...just saying an argument I heard

 

[powerchord86]

Thome belongs in the HOF.

Let me rephrase that.

Jim Thome will be in the HOF.

 

[calsnowskier]

Pete Rose deserves it more....

I will agree with you THE SECOND HE DIES.

He is currently serving a lifetime ban. He has no right to be there until that sentence is over.

He committed the cardinal sin. You cannot go easy on that.

 

[calsnowskier]

Calsnowskier, I respect your opinion and am not arguing it. You have your criteria and that is fine. My only beef is with some of those things that you mentioned ( and I did see the disclaimer about them being imperfect).

First, the lack of MVP votes-I always have trouble with this one because it often is too biased by the BBWAA and many bad choices have been made. Also, Thome played on some teams that had other guys in the MVP discussion which hurt him.
The AS team- The ASG is a complete and utter useless joke in all pro sports but especially in baseball. I can never use it as a criteria for a players standing because year after year fans vote awful, managers load up with there own guys or some guy comes out of nowhere to have a great first half only to disappear (read:Ubaldo Jimenez/2010 or Raul Ibanez/2009) the second half.
The silver slugger- I have to give this one to you with just a slight disclaimer. Again, this is an award voted on and is limited to one per position and players will often get left out because of other players having sometimes only slightly better years. When Thome was at 1b in the 90's in Cleveland, he was up against Thomas in Chicago, Delgado in Toronto etc,etc. 1b is always one of the hardest positions to stand out because there are always so many big sluggers playing there.(this also goes back to ASG's, there are always at least one or two 1B left off because of sheer numbers).
World Series rings- I can't judge a player based on what is strictly a team accomplishment. The lack of championships shouldn't penalize a great player any more than having been on a bunch of winners somehow makes him more worthy. Andy Pettitte, Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neal and all those other Yankees shouldn't get more votes just because they were on a dynasty. The HOF is about individual achievement and a total body of work over a long time, not being fortunate enough to win championships.

I agree with all that you stated.

However, they are comparative, so saying "He did not make the ASG because there were other guys having better years" (paraphrasing, but I am making a point, so bear with me) makes my point for me. There were always better 1B in the game during his era (Thomas, Delgado, Pujols, Gonzalez, etc).

We are not discussing the Hall of Very Good.

I was VERY against the inclusion of Bert Blyleven. He was good, sure. But one of the main reasons he is in is because of his win total. Wins are a complete bogus stat. It has almost nothing to do with how good a pitcher you are. He also only made 3 ASG in a 21 year career. Sure, if you analyze his career, I am sure you can make an argument for 7 or 8 or 9 (or whatever). That is all a bunch of hypothetical, what-if, BS. The fact is, if he was THAT dominant, he would have represented more than 3 times in a 21 year career.

Thome falls into the same boat.

Thome is like an asshole. Everyone has one. (or something like that)

 

[calsnowskier]

FYI...

I am arguing a point. I do not feel nearly as adamant about Thome in the Hall as I did about Blyleven. Just talking shit about the best game on Earth

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

I'm on the fence with Thome. 600 homeruns is nothing to sneeze at but to me he has alwasy been a very good but not great player. The fact that he could not play in the field makes me lean toward exclusion; at least on the first ballot.

 

[ELYEAH82]

There are always going to be players going in that weren't the best from their era. I dont really see the argument, he is most def going to be in the HOF.

 

[huskers1217]

DALE FREAKIN MURPHY FOR HOF!!!!

 

[Ginger]

One argument I heard about Thome and his lack of awards and whatnot was the guys he was against in voting were on roids, no question. Now most believe he is completely clean, but if you dont this argument wouldnt have much of an effect. He was over shadowed by players who were on roids. Had no one been taking them, who knows...just saying an argument I heard

I've always kind of thought that he flew under the radar and was extremely underrated. If not for all the steroid guys stealing his thunder back then we might actually be considering him one of the all time greats. :typing:

 

[element1286]

At no point in Thome's career did I ever consider him one of the top small handful of 1B in the game.

Who were these top handful of first basemen then?

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

Part of the problem is Thome went kind of unnoticed at 1b. In the late 90's in the AL he was (maybe somewhat unfairly to a degree) behind guys like Frank Thomas, Carlos Delgado, Mo Vaughn, Tino Martinez, and Palmiero (you remember the year he got voted starting 1b for the ASG despite only playing 10 or 12 games or something like that). That's why I discount the ASG as much as I do.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

I was VERY against the inclusion of Bert Blyleven. He was good, sure. But one of the main reasons he is in is because of his win total. Wins are a complete bogus stat.

I agree that wins aren't as big as they are made out to be but I disagree about Blyleven. I think the W-L record is one of the things that kept him out for so long along with ,of course, the fact that he didn't get along with the press. I think Blyleven's K totals, CG's, IP and longevity warrant him in the hall and if anything they should have a picture or sculpture of his curveball grip. According to most hitters that faced him, the best curve the game has ever seen.

 

[element1286]

Part of the problem is Thome went kind of unnoticed at 1b. In the late 90's in the AL he was (maybe somewhat unfairly to a degree) behind guys like Frank Thomas, Carlos Delgado, Mo Vaughn, Tino Martinez, and Palmiero (you remember the year he got voted starting 1b for the ASG despite only playing 10 or 12 games or something like that). That's why I discount the ASG as much as I do.

Yet he was better than all those first basemen, save Frank Thomas.