Is Tom Brady the G.O.A.T.

[Fountain City Blues]

If you want to get into Brady vs Manning, we can. Why is Manning so far ahead of Brady that it isn't close?

Just raw volume numbers would be the footnotes version. The point of the post was never that Manning was the GOAT, it was that there are many different perspectives on what goes into determining the GOAT. If anything, I implied Jerry Rice was the GOAT.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Just raw volume numbers would be the footnotes version. The point of the post was never that Manning was the GOAT, it was that there are many different perspectives on what goes into determining the GOAT. If anything, I implied Jerry Rice was the GOAT.

"If we strictly evaluate this on a team sport and separate that from individual performance- I think it's Peyton and not particularly close, imo"

Saying that "pound for pound" that Jerry Rice is the GOAT isn't really implying that he's the GOAT.

So Peyton is the best stat compiler and that makes him the greatest by far? Brady has 30 fewer games than him.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

"If we strictly evaluate this on a team sport and separate that from individual performance- I think it's Peyton and not particularly close, imo"

Saying that "pound for pound" that Jerry Rice is the GOAT isn't really implying that he's the GOAT.

So Peyton is the best stat compiler and that makes him the greatest by far? Brady has 30 fewer games than him.

But the QB never operates in a vacuum which is an obvious hole in that argument- and it was a post rooted in the present tense. Probably why many Manning types will claim Peyton was actually surrounded by extenuating circumstances or what not when debating the value of rings in the GOAT argument. It's not very surprising a site like 538 "tackled" (not really they kind of had a cop out) the topic and figured manning to be the GOAT.

 

[soxfan1468927]

But the QB never operates in a vacuum which is an obvious hole in that argument- and it was a post rooted in the present tense. Probably why many Manning types will claim Peyton was actually surrounded by extenuating circumstances or what not when debating the value of rings in the GOAT argument. It's not very surprising a site like 538 "tackled" (not really they kind of had a cop out) the topic and figured manning to be the GOAT.

Yes it's an obvious hole in the argument that his volume of numbers would be the footnote of the argument. The context of those numbers is important.

Actually when they used a weighted formula that takes into account playoff performance, he was not the GOAT. The most recent article about him, after he retired, stated that he was "one of the greatest, if not the greatest". I'm not denying that. Also, read up on the methodology that is used to determine their "regular season value ranking" which is the only list where they have Peyton as number 1. The creator of the statistic states: "It’s important to remember that this is just a measure of each team’s passing game, assigned to the quarterback on the field for those plays. Obviously the quality of the offensive line, the ability of the receivers, the versatility of the tight ends and running backs, the philosophy of the coaches, the strength of the schedule, and good old randomness have a significant impact on the above numbers."

So it is, in a vacuum. How do you put the numbers in context, numbers where Brady is 2nd all time and not far behind Manning, not including playoff performance at all, and say it isn't close?

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Yes it's an obvious hole in the argument that his volume of numbers would be the footnote of the argument. The context of those numbers is important.

Actually when they used a weighted formula that takes into account playoff performance, he was not the GOAT. The most recent article about him, after he retired, stated that he was "one of the greatest, if not the greatest". I'm not denying that. Also, read up on the methodology that is used to determine their "regular season value ranking" which is the only list where they have Peyton as number 1. The creator of the statistic states: "It’s important to remember that this is just a measure of each team’s passing game, assigned to the quarterback on the field for those plays. Obviously the quality of the offensive line, the ability of the receivers, the versatility of the tight ends and running backs, the philosophy of the coaches, the strength of the schedule, and good old randomness have a significant impact on the above numbers."

So it is, in a vacuum. How do you put the numbers in context, numbers where Brady is 2nd all time and not far behind Manning, not including playoff performance at all, and say it isn't close?

1. I will read them again- my memory may have betrayed me here. But the post was intentionally phrased in a way where there is no contextualization. I remember enough Brady/Manning debates from ESPN (hi @Manning2Luck_uJelly) that I am not going to actively engage such a debate unless it's something patently obvious; IE X claim is demonstrably false.

2. Volume tends to justify itself in these arguments which is why I am never a fan. Really just depends how long Brady plays. Those 30 games or so you mentioned aren't totally unimportant.

 

[soxfan1468927]

1. I will read them again- my memory may have betrayed me here. But the post was intentionally phrased in a way where there is no contextualization. I remember enough Brady/Manning debates from ESPN (hi @Manning2Luck_uJelly) that I am not going to actively engage such a debate unless it's something patently obvious; IE X claim is demonstrably false.

2. Volume tends to justify itself in these arguments which is why I am never a fan. Really just depends how long Brady plays. Those 30 games or so you mentioned aren't totally unimportant.

1. This is why I jumped in. Saying that it isn't close, to me, is completely false.

2. I don't disagree that the 30 games aren't unimportant. I give credit to Manning for maintaining those rate states for the extra 30 games that Brady hasn't played yet. It's essentially a pros and cons list and how you weigh them.

Manning pros: 30 extra games, slightly better rate states outside of interceptions
Manning cons: played in a dome, had better offensive talent around him, has two seasons much worse than Brady's worst season

Brady pros: better postseason performance, played outside, more consistency from season to season
Brady cons: better coaching

However you want to weigh those are fine, but it's close either way. I challenge Brady fans who say that he's the greatest of all time and it's not close.

 

[shopson67]

Has Manning really had that much of an advantage in offensive personnel? He has never had any once in a generation athletic freaks to utilize like Brady has in Moss and Gronkowski. Peyton has consistently had more above average outside receivers, but the Patriots have always focused on 3rd down backs and hyper talented slot receiver types.

Brady also had the advantage of being drafted to a .500 team and didn't have to play as a rookie. Manning's poor rookie season was largely a result of a rookie QB starting for a 3-13 team.

 

[RP-29]

Soooo... Tom Brady is Baphomet incarnate?

 

[soxfan1468927]

Has Manning really had that much of an advantage in offensive personnel? He has never had any once in a generation athletic freaks to utilize like Brady has in Moss and Gronkowski. Peyton has consistently had more above average outside receivers, but the Patriots have always focused on 3rd down backs and hyper talented slot receiver types.

Brady has had Moss and Gronk for 110 games total. Manning had Harrison and Wayne together for 114 games, another 44 games with just Harrison, and another 32 games with just Wayne.

I'm not saying Brady hasn't had talent, I'm saying Peyton has had more.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Brady has had Moss and Gronk for 110 games total. Manning had Harrison and Wayne together for 114 games, another 44 games with just Harrison, and another 32 games with just Wayne.

I'm not saying Brady hasn't had talent, I'm saying Peyton has had more.

And Brady has had BB while Peyton has been carrying Jim Caldwell and Tony Dungy on his back

I think it all evens out

 

[soxfan1468927]

And Brady has had BB while Peyton has been carrying Jim Caldwell and Tony Dungy on his back

I think it all evens out

Manning pros: 30 extra games, slightly better rate states outside of interceptions
Manning cons: played in a dome, had better offensive talent around him, has two seasons much worse than Brady's worst season

Brady pros: better postseason performance, played outside, more consistency from season to season
Brady cons: better coaching

 

[soxfan1468927]

And Brady has had BB while Peyton has been carrying Jim Caldwell and Tony Dungy on his back

I think it all evens out

I put that in the Brady cons list a few posts up.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

I put that in the Brady cons list a few posts up.

Gotcha.....Tough comp...Brady has always seemed to play with a Top shelf defense, while the Colts and Peyton always seemed to be a pretty shit defense......Both of those factors change the way a QB plays.......Especially when you look at INT's

 

[soxfan1468927]

Gotcha.....Tough comp...Brady has always seemed to play with a Top shelf defense, while the Colts and Peyton always seemed to be a pretty shit defense......Both of those factors change the way a QB plays.......Especially when you look at INT's

He had a top 10 defense in 2002 (19 INTs), 2005 (10 INTs), 2007 (14 INTs), 2008 (12 INTs), 2009 (16 INTs), 2012 (11 INTs), and 2015 (17 INTs)

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

He had a top 10 defense in 2002 (19 INTs), 2005 (10 INTs), 2007 (14 INTs), 2008 (12 INTs), 2009 (16 INTs), 2012 (11 INTs), and 2015 (17 INTs)

He was awful in '15, no argument here

Id have to see what measure is being used there, cause everyone knows Peytons Colts defenses were all pretty awful

 

[soxfan1468927]

He was awful in '15, no argument here

Id have to see what measure is being used there, cause everyone knows Peytons Colts defenses were all pretty awful

Points allowed per game.

 

[Battlelyon]

Yes, he is.

This the greatest performance of a qb I have ever seen.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Brady is the freaking GOAT

 

[Battlelyon]

Nobody else has an argument.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]