If you had to trade Zito

[msgkings322]

Yeah but they all will have at least contributed something in the meantime. I don't give a crap if Beltran is gimping around in left field for $15mil in 2014 if he hits .300 with 25HR and 100RBI in 2012 and again in 2013.

Anyone with half a brain has been grumbling about Zito and Rowand from the day they were signed, not just here at the end of their ridiculous contracts. I don't think anyone would be grumbling if the Giants signed Beltran to a 3 year deal for $XXXridiculous millions. I wouldn't.

How did you feel about Huff grounding out to second all year for $11 mil after 'contributing' in the meantime (last year)?

But if I thought Beltran could be had for a 3 year deal I'd be all over it. But he won't, and you know it.

 

[msgkings322]

Stop it. When Peter Magowan forced management to overpay for Barry Zito, he was already a pitcher on the decline. his peripheral stats showed a marked decline in his Ks per 9 innins, his K:BB ratio and a rise in his hr/9. Plus, anyone with half a brain could have watched him and seen a decline in his fastball speed. We ALL knew that Zito was on his way down.

Fielder is 27 years old and is still improving as a hitter. Fielder had a .981 OPS this season and an OPS+ of 164, which is 30 points higher than last season's. His OBP went up, his BA went up, his strikeouts went down and his total bases went up. His WAR doubled from the previous year.

The guy is going to be a very solid hitter throughout his next contract. If you want to say that the Giants cannot afford him, fine. But saying that any team that signs him will regret it 2-3 years into his contract is pure conjecture and is a statement that is not supported by ANY stats.

I will not argue the point with Reyes or Beltran because both are fra-geelee (ooh, must be Italian). But Fielder is not in that same conversation. He deserves to test the FA market and the Giants would be lucky to be able to sign him for the next 6 years. They won't do it, but he would be a VAST improvement over anyone the team will stick at 1B before 2015 - and that includes Brandon Belt.

You are correct that Fielder is the least likely to be a bad contract, but it's not out of the question. Putting aside whether we can afford him, it may take 7 years and $150 mil to get him, and you can't tell me there's not a real risk his fat ass won't be in major decline in the last 3 years of that deal, especially hitting at PacBell.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

For the record, the reason I started this thread was to have some fun and be creative. That said, I would MUCH rather overpay a hitter who has a chance to affect a game every day - even as a pinch-hitter - rather than a finesse pitcher who can only affect the game once every five days (and most of those will be negative).

At least Rios has a chance to hit 20 bombs and steal 10 bags in a season. Zito will never be a winning pitcher again.

I agree with your assessment of Zito, that it is better to overpay for a position player, and that it is possible that Rios might have a good year.

However Rios really is a bum. He might hit .275 he might hit .225. He might make me curse him every day as opposed to cursing Zito every 5th day. And if then he'd remined me of Zito every day and I'd curse them both. Fucking Zito Fuck you and your unicorn dude.

Also seeing as how he is not a good hitter, much like Rowand, I think AT&T would get the better of him and we would be much more likely to see the .225 version.

I've had enough of the .225.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

How did you feel about Huff grounding out to second all year for $11 mil after 'contributing' in the meantime (last year)?

But if I thought Beltran could be had for a 3 year deal I'd be all over it. But he won't, and you know it.

I feel like Huff helped win us a MUTHAFUCKIN WORLD SERIES is how I feel. And if he hits next season like he did this season he'll be waived and Pill/Belt will take over and I could care less about the money. Not sure what that has to do with Beltran I don't think Beltran would get paid and take a year off.

I have no idea what Beltran is looking for and even if it was more than 3. I wouldn't give one shit if he helped us win another world series or two - which I think would really really be possible if they did sign him.

Beltran is not the same case as Zito or Rowand who never were going to help the Giants at the level of their contracts and in fact hindered them every year they were/are here. They still won a World Series despite those useless bastards. Beltran would be worth it to me even if the last year or so he was a hobbled old man, he would probably still have some value as a DH for someone if that were to be the case so at least he would be tradeable.

 

[msgkings322]

I feel like Huff helped win us a MUTHAFUCKIN WORLD SERIES is how I feel. And if he hits next season like he did this season he'll be waived and Pill/Belt will take over and I could care less about the money. Not sure what that has to do with Beltran I don't think Beltran would get paid and take a year off.

I have no idea what Beltran is looking for and even if it was more than 3. I wouldn't give one shit if he helped us win another world series or two - which I think would really really be possible if they did sign him.

Beltran is not the same case as Zito or Rowand who never were going to help the Giants at the level of their contracts and in fact hindered them every year they were/are here. They still won a World Series despite those useless bastards. Beltran would be worth it to me even if the last year or so he was a hobbled old man, he would probably still have some value as a DH for someone if that were to be the case so at least he would be tradeable.

What is has to do with Beltran is just riffing on your language...Huff got paid this year for what he did last year, but since he's on only a 2 year deal no biggie, even if he sucks in 2012 also.

Beltran will get more $ and more years, and obviously if you can guarantee that him being here = another ring, you pay it no problem. I hardly think he can guarantee one by being here, especially if him being here means we have less elsewhere. Maybe not his fault but it's at least a notable coincidence that we went in the tank RIGHT AFTER we got him. And he hit decently too.

My point being, while there are obvious differences with Zito, Rowand, Fielder, Beltran, etc. you have to keep in mind the ramifications of big, long term deals, to anyone. And if we do step up for one of those guys, we have to live with it if it goes pear shaped. It might be better and more flexible to use the same money to fill multiple positions of need, for shorter times to let our youngsters fill them in later.

Everyone here seems pretty confident they 'knew' Rowand and Zito would suck when we signed them, but I call hindsight on that. And Rowand didn't suck at first either.

 

[calsnowskier]

What is has to do with Beltran is just riffing on your language...Huff got paid this year for what he did last year, but since he's on only a 2 year deal no biggie, even if he sucks in 2012 also.

Beltran will get more $ and more years, and obviously if you can guarantee that him being here = another ring, you pay it no problem. I hardly think he can guarantee one by being here, especially if him being here means we have less elsewhere. Maybe not his fault but it's at least a notable coincidence that we went in the tank RIGHT AFTER we got him. And he hit decently too.

My point being, while there are obvious differences with Zito, Rowand, Fielder, Beltran, etc. you have to keep in mind the ramifications of big, long term deals, to anyone. And if we do step up for one of those guys, we have to live with it if it goes pear shaped. It might be better and more flexible to use the same money to fill multiple positions of need, for shorter times to let our youngsters fill them in later.

Everyone here seems pretty confident they 'knew' Rowand and Zito would suck when we signed them, but I call hindsight on that. And Rowand didn't suck at first either.

Hey, Posey is rather pear-shaped, and I am happy to be "living" with him...

 

[msgkings322]

Hey, Posey is rather pear-shaped, and I am happy to be "living" with him...

And Fielder is shaped like a bowling ball, and the Brewers have been happy with him too!

 

[iHATEdodgers]

What is has to do with Beltran is just riffing on your language...Huff got paid this year for what he did last year, but since he's on only a 2 year deal no biggie, even if he sucks in 2012 also.

Beltran will get more $ and more years, and obviously if you can guarantee that him being here = another ring, you pay it no problem. I hardly think he can guarantee one by being here, especially if him being here means we have less elsewhere. Maybe not his fault but it's at least a notable coincidence that we went in the tank RIGHT AFTER we got him. And he hit decently too.

My point being, while there are obvious differences with Zito, Rowand, Fielder, Beltran, etc. you have to keep in mind the ramifications of big, long term deals, to anyone. And if we do step up for one of those guys, we have to live with it if it goes pear shaped. It might be better and more flexible to use the same money to fill multiple positions of need, for shorter times to let our youngsters fill them in later.

Everyone here seems pretty confident they 'knew' Rowand and Zito would suck when we signed them, but I call hindsight on that. And Rowand didn't suck at first either.

Dude, are you for serious with the hindsight!! Wait a minute... as far as "knowing they would suck" that's fair to call hindsight on that.

But that's not what I'm saying.

I absolutely thought both those deals were fucking terrible. Zito at least was a good pitcher but the money was just an absolute killer. Rowand wasn't even that good period. Way too much money for waay too little player.

I'm not saying I thought either of them would have turned out as terrible as they did, but in no way were they ever worth anywhere close to what they've been paid. I knew we weren't going to get 20+ HRs from Rowand or 2003 Zito I will say that, because, they just aren't that good. Bad contracts period.

As for Huff he got paid for last year, yes, but he's also had a pretty damn good career, it's not like he came totally out of nowhere.

Beltran is bonafide and so is Fielder, different situations completely. They are worth Zito/Rowand $$ without a doubt. Not just based on this year either based on their careers.

So different situations entirely...

 

[tzill]

Please note that if we sign Fielder, or Reyes, or even Beltran, we will be having very similar conversations about what to do with their bloated contracts in 2-3 years.

I don't think we're going to give any FA more than 3 years, so I don't see us having to Rowand anyone again.

 

[msgkings322]

I don't think we're going to give any FA more than 3 years, so I don't see us having to Rowand anyone again.

I agree, which means no Beltran, Fielder, Reyes, etc.

 

[msgkings322]

Dude, are you for serious with the hindsight!! Wait a minute... as far as "knowing they would suck" that's fair to call hindsight on that.

But that's not what I'm saying.

I absolutely thought both those deals were fucking terrible. Zito at least was a good pitcher but the money was just an absolute killer. Rowand wasn't even that good period. Way too much money for waay too little player.

I'm not saying I thought either of them would have turned out as terrible as they did, but in no way were they ever worth anywhere close to what they've been paid. I knew we weren't going to get 20+ HRs from Rowand or 2003 Zito I will say that, because, they just aren't that good. Bad contracts period.

As for Huff he got paid for last year, yes, but he's also had a pretty damn good career, it's not like he came totally out of nowhere.

Beltran is bonafide and so is Fielder, different situations completely. They are worth Zito/Rowand $$ without a doubt. Not just based on this year either based on their careers.

So different situations entirely...

Depending on how they actually play, throughout their contracts, the situations might or might not be so 'different'. I agree Zito was an overpay almost no matter hiow well he did, and Rowand was also an overpay (not much of one based on the market and what he did the first 2 years here...), but I can EASILY see us regarding Fielder, Beltran, or ANYONE as an overpay...in hindsight.

You just don't know. Which is why the longer a deal is the more you risk by not knowing. I think, rightly or wrongly, that's our team's current philosophy. We won't take the risk of getting Rowanded or Zitoed again.

So if Beltran can truly be had on a 3 year deal, I'd be for it. 4+ I say no. And no on Fielder and Reyes and their 7+ year contracts coming.

 

[tzill]

Yeah but they all will have at least contributed something in the meantime. I don't give a crap if Beltran is gimping around in left field for $15mil in 2014 if he hits .300 with 25HR and 100RBI in 2012 and again in 2013.

Anyone with half a brain has been grumbling about Zito and Rowand from the day they were signed, not just here at the end of their ridiculous contracts. I don't think anyone would be grumbling if the Giants signed Beltran to a 3 year deal for $XXXridiculous millions. I wouldn't.

First, I disagree that a gimpy, half-time, washed-up Beltran in 2014 would be "okay" as long as he put up really good seasons in 12/13. Especially if we were paying $20MM for the privilege.

Second, lots of people would "grumble" if signing Beltran means that Lincecum is traded for prospects/cheap contracts. You're considering a huge Beltran contract in a vaccuum -- dollars spent on him necessarily cannot be spent on other players. It's always about cost.

Last, I wouldn't equate a 3/60 deal for Beltran to Rowand or Zito's contracts either. Nonetheless, that type of money needs to be reserved for Timmy and Cain, and later on Panda, Posey, and Bum.

I don't see us adding a huge multiyear deal to the payroll until Zito's money comes off.

 

[tzill]

How did you feel about Huff grounding out to second all year for $11 mil after 'contributing' in the meantime (last year)?

But if I thought Beltran could be had for a 3 year deal I'd be all over it. But he won't, and you know it.

I'm not so sure....I think it's 50/50 that he'd take a 3 year deal. We certainly won't sign him to a longer one though. And he won't take a shorter deal either.

 

[tzill]

You are correct that Fielder is the least likely to be a bad contract, but it's not out of the question. Putting aside whether we can afford him, it may take 7 years and $150 mil to get him, and you can't tell me there's not a real risk his fat ass won't be in major decline in the last 3 years of that deal, especially hitting at PacBell.

This. He'll almost certainly sign in the AL where old, fat hitters can collect a paycheck while not playing defense.

 

[tzill]

What is has to do with Beltran is just riffing on your language...Huff got paid this year for what he did last year, but since he's on only a 2 year deal no biggie, even if he sucks in 2012 also.

Beltran will get more $ and more years, and obviously if you can guarantee that him being here = another ring, you pay it no problem. I hardly think he can guarantee one by being here, especially if him being here means we have less elsewhere. Maybe not his fault but it's at least a notable coincidence that we went in the tank RIGHT AFTER we got him. And he hit decently too.

My point being, while there are obvious differences with Zito, Rowand, Fielder, Beltran, etc. you have to keep in mind the ramifications of big, long term deals, to anyone. And if we do step up for one of those guys, we have to live with it if it goes pear shaped. It might be better and more flexible to use the same money to fill multiple positions of need, for shorter times to let our youngsters fill them in later.

Everyone here seems pretty confident they 'knew' Rowand and Zito would suck when we signed them, but I call hindsight on that. And Rowand didn't suck at first either.

For the record, I really wanted them to get Zito when he was a FA. I thought that coming to the NL, at AT&T, with that curveball, that he'd be an effective #2 type. Then, I saw the contract and thought "fuck, that's a lot of money for a lot of years."

There were lots of people who were on board with the Zito signing -- not the money, but the move. Most who were against it were bitter A'ss fans.

I don't recall many people either being strongly for or against RoRo...

 

[msgkings322]

For the record, I really wanted them to get Zito when he was a FA. I thought that coming to the NL, at AT&T, with that curveball, that he'd be an effective #2 type. Then, I saw the contract and thought "fuck, that's a lot of money for a lot of years."

There were lots of people who were on board with the Zito signing -- not the money, but the move. Most who were against it were bitter A'ss fans.

I don't recall many people either being strongly for or against RoRo...

Agreed on Zito, him sucking so hard after that move was really puzzling. Maybe the money actually CAUSED the suckitude by getting in his head, which sucks in and of itself, and is kind of ironic.

I also was ok with the Rowand deal, we weren't a good team when we signed him, and we always have to overpay hitters to come here. It was an overpay though, but more in years than dollars. His first 2 years here he had around a .750 OPS, and played decent to good CF defense. That's not a bad player to have.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Agreed on Zito, him sucking so hard after that move was really puzzling. Maybe the money actually CAUSED the suckitude by getting in his head, which sucks in and of itself, and is kind of ironic.

I also was ok with the Rowand deal, we weren't a good team when we signed him, and we always have to overpay hitters to come here. It was an overpay though, but more in years than dollars. His first 2 years here he had around a .750 OPS, and played decent to good CF defense. That's not a bad player to have.

For $12mil a season it is/was way too much. I think you are misremembering how good he was not ever for us. Anyway they didn't pay him to be a .750 6th place hitter. They paid him to be an .875 5th place hitter. Bad idea.

As for Zito, the $ might have had something to do with it really, but I think it was the drop in fastball speed from 89 to 83 that pretty much accounts for his level of suck. What I mean is that he sucks because he sucks.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

First, I disagree that a gimpy, half-time, washed-up Beltran in 2014 would be "okay" as long as he put up really good seasons in 12/13. Especially if we were paying $20MM for the privilege.

Second, lots of people would "grumble" if signing Beltran means that Lincecum is traded for prospects/cheap contracts. You're considering a huge Beltran contract in a vaccuum -- dollars spent on him necessarily cannot be spent on other players. It's always about cost.

Last, I wouldn't equate a 3/60 deal for Beltran to Rowand or Zito's contracts either. Nonetheless, that type of money needs to be reserved for Timmy and Cain, and later on Panda, Posey, and Bum.

I don't see us adding a huge multiyear deal to the payroll until Zito's money comes off.

Obviously that bold part goes without saying. I was responding to this statement:

Please note that if we sign Fielder, or Reyes, or even Beltran, we will be having very similar conversations about what to do with their bloated contracts in 2-3 years.

As I said I do not think we would be having anywhere near this type of conversation if we sign Beltran, he would a tradeable commodity unlike Rowand or Zito - and most importantly in the meantime he would actually bring alot to the table.

Of course I was thinking more along the lines of 3 or 4 year deal. If it's more than that I'd probably pass too. I don't think he is going to get what some of you think he's going to get. He had a decent year this season, not a $20 million year. He played a combined 145 games in 09 and 10. I don't think too many teams will be offering him a max 6 year deal. He definitely has some wear and tear and this ain't the steroid era any longer where you can extend your career into your early 40's as easily.

 

[msgkings322]

For $12mil a season it is/was way too much. I think you are misremembering how good he was not ever for us. Anyway they didn't pay him to be a .750 6th place hitter. They paid him to be an .875 5th place hitter. Bad idea.

As for Zito, the $ might have had something to do with it really, but I think it was the drop in fastball speed from 89 to 83 that pretty much accounts for his level of suck. What I mean is that he sucks because he sucks.

I don't disagree one bit that both contracts were horrible, and mistakes. You just seem to think there's no way a big deal to Beltran would be a similar mistake. But it sounds like we agree more than we disagree, in that we both would be ok with Beltran for 3 years.

Time will tell...

 

[CameronFrye]

I don't think we're going to give any FA more than 3 years, so I don't see us having to Rowand anyone again.

Ever again? Or just this year? Because any franchise that limits its free agent shopping to those willing to accept 3-year deals as a rule is not going be a team that wins on a consistent basis.