"I really do believe I'm the greatest receiver to play this game." -- Randy Moss

[Ray_Dogg]

 

[deep9er]

Will Calvin Johnson eclipse Rice and Moss? - NFC North Blog - ESPN

Megatron has some serious catching up to do in terms of TDs.

no doubt. he's in the best situation now for active players, but i'd still bet against him.

JR's continued production into his late 30's, was simply amazing. few WR's in the history of the game can produce well thru their late 30's, to 40.

 

[drekeeper]

The thing with my guy Moss is that he has done more with less and is a first ballot hall of famer. Swap Moss with a Rice or even Owens for a career in terms of QB's played with and I could only imagine where his numbers would be

 

[wartyOne]

The thing with my guy Moss is that he has done more with less and is a first ballot hall of famer. Swap Moss with a Rice or even Owens for a career in terms of QB's played with and I could only imagine where his numbers would be

He got to play in the current NFL with Tom Brady. Granted, it wasn't for long, but the system favored offenses, specifically WR's and QB's, in the era which Moss played. If Rice and Montana had the rules tailored to them the way Brady and Manning have had tailored for them, this wouldn't be a discussion (in my opinion, it still isn't). Montana would have thrown for 100,000 yards under today's rules. Rice would have had 400 TD's. If defenders weren't allowed to tee off on Montana, the way they aren't allowed to touch Brady, we'd be playing for our tenth Lombardi trophy in a few days. Maybe our 15th.

 

[NinerSickness]

The only way to compare players statistically, IMO, is how they did against the average that particular year. I did a huge research project with Steve Young, Montana, Peyton, Favre, Marino, Elway & Warner showing their numbers against the average. I also did one with the '00 Ravens' defense VS the '85 Bears defense VS the '02 Buccs defense in terms of points allowed ('00 Ravens came out on top; I wish I saved that one). It would probably be a lot easier to do with receiving yards, and I may just have to do that this offseason if I'm bored enough.

 

[shouldakepowens]

Breaking news Marshall Faulk thinks he's the best rb off all time.

 

[NinerSickness]

Breaking news Marshall Faulk thinks he's the best rb off all time.

He has a MUCH better arguement than Moss does.

 

[shouldakepowens]

He has a MUCH better arguement than Moss does.

No way. I just think its dumb that this has sparked such an outrage.

 

[threelittleturds]

The thing with my guy Moss is that he has done more with less and is a first ballot hall of famer. Swap Moss with a Rice or even Owens for a career in terms of QB's played with and I could only imagine where his numbers would be

While I fully support this argument that Rice benefited greatly by having Montana and Young at QB, and Randy's numbers could have matched Rice's if he was with Brady for 10 years.

BUT

The catch is that Jerry Rice worked so hard and pretty much never stopped working on getting better at every single aspect of being a WR. Randy on the other hand worked hard but he only tried to be the best catching WR and he didn't really have to work at being faster or taller than everyone else, he just had to work on the little routes to set up his deep ball. Randy has barely shown interest in the little things that made him the best. WRs came from all over to train with Jerry, maybe just a handful of guys would workout with Moss in the offseason. That says a lot I think.

Randy never would have had 10 years with a HOF QB because his attitude and ego would have made him a liability to the team, just like it did in New England. So, that is why I see where this argument comes from that Moss could have matched numbers in theory, but reality is the honeymoon probably would have only lasted 2 or 3 years.. 5 at most with a HOF QB.

 

[NinerSickness]

No way. I just think its dumb that this has sparked such an outrage.

I don't think it's outrage as much as an excuse to trash Moss because people don't like him. I'm admittedly one of those people, but I think I can objectively say that he's delusional on this one.

If John Elway came out and said he's the greatest QB of all time, I'd think he was just as delusional as Moss. But he wouldn't get as much heat as Moss does.

 

[drekeeper]

He got to play in the current NFL with Tom Brady. Granted, it wasn't for long, but the system favored offenses, specifically WR's and QB's, in the era which Moss played. If Rice and Montana had the rules tailored to them the way Brady and Manning have had tailored for them, this wouldn't be a discussion (in my opinion, it still isn't). Montana would have thrown for 100,000 yards under today's rules. Rice would have had 400 TD's. If defenders weren't allowed to tee off on Montana, the way they aren't allowed to touch Brady, we'd be playing for our tenth Lombardi trophy in a few days. Maybe our 15th.

When comparing era's, it's apples and oranges. The game was a lot more physical then but whose to say that a 6-4 Randy Moss and his 4.25 40 and his vertical would not have destroyed every DB/Safety known to man back in those days (This guy does)? Back in those days you had a few DB's in Darrel Green and Deion who possessed that type of speed but they were the rare exceptions. The game was more brutal back then, but today's athletes are bigger, stronger faster than the players before. It's like listening to guys trying to convince another guy that Lebron would not have survived in Jordan's era its nonsense. I stay away from the hypothetical arguments and simply point to the facts. Moss's 3 year run with a Hall of fame QB produced 3,765 yards and 37 touchdowns. Over that span that's an average of 1255 yards and roughly 12 touchdowns a year which in Moss's heyday were subpar years, now throw in some of his seasons where he went off 1600 and 1400 with band aid QB's and the end numbers would look much different. I'm saying right now that Jerry Rice would not have put up near the numbers if he and Moss switched QB situations.

 

[Dodub]

Randy is one of the most feared receivers in the history of the NFL. That being said, he simply isn't on Jerry's level. Plain and simple, it is laughable to think anything else.

 

[drekeeper]

While I fully support this argument that Rice benefited greatly by having Montana and Young at QB, and Randy's numbers could have matched Rice's if he was with Brady for 10 years.

BUT

The catch is that Jerry Rice worked so hard and pretty much never stopped working on getting better at every single aspect of being a WR. Randy on the other hand worked hard but he only tried to be the best catching WR and he didn't really have to work at being faster or taller than everyone else, he just had to work on the little routes to set up his deep ball. Randy has barely shown interest in the little things that made him the best. WRs came from all over to train with Jerry, maybe just a handful of guys would workout with Moss in the offseason. That says a lot I think.

Randy never would have had 10 years with a HOF QB because his attitude and ego would have made him a liability to the team, just like it did in New England. So, that is why I see where this argument comes from that Moss could have matched numbers in theory, but reality is the honeymoon probably would have only lasted 2 or 3 years.. 5 at most with a HOF QB.

I agree with most other than the bottom half. Randy was getting old and wanted something long-term in NewEngland where he probably would have retired, nothing wrong with trying to get paid with a little security as he knew the twilight was coming

 

[drekeeper]

Randy is one of the most feared receivers in the history of the NFL. That being said, he simply isn't on Jerry's level. Plain and simple, it is laughable to think anything else.

Does Rice have the same numbers for his career playing with Collins, Ferrote, Cunningham and Culpepper? Would it still be laughable? I think the easiest and cheapest assessment is look at Crabtree with Alex, versus Crabtree with Kap. He's an entire different wide receiver.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Here's my thought: this is all a ploy by Harbaugh to use Moss as the ultimate decoy on Sunday. Get him to talk a lot of trash, and then AJ Jenkins - who we've been holding in reserve all season just for this game - will just explode for about 200 yards and two TDs on deep passes.

 

[Bemular]

Here's my thought: this is all a ploy by Harbaugh to use Moss as the ultimate decoy on Sunday. Get him to talk a lot of trash, and then AJ Jenkins - who we've been holding in reserve all season just for this game - will just explode for about 200 yards and two TDs on deep passes.

My thoughts exactly!!

 

[NinerSickness]

Does Rice have the same numbers for his career playing with Collins, Ferrote, Cunningham and Culpepper? Would it still be laughable? I think the easiest and cheapest assessment is look at Crabtree with Alex, versus Crabtree with Kap. He's an entire different wide receiver.

Chicken and the egg... Would Montana & Young have been as good without Rice? Would Rich Gannon have been as good without him?

Either way, Rice had over twice the amount of yards at age 36 that Moss did at age 35. And that's when teams were allowed to play defense.

 

[drekeeper]

Chicken and the egg... Would Montana & Young have been as good without Rice? Would Rich Gannon have been as good without him?

Either way, Rice had over twice the amount of yards at age 36 that Moss did at age 35. And that's when teams were allowed to play defense.

Stop me when I'm wrong. Montana won his first super bowl without the presence of Jerry Rice and proceeded to claim 3 Super Bowl MVP's playing with Rice, while leading an average Chiefs team to back to back playoffs appearances including a trip to the AFC title game..I'm Good that Joe with or without Rice would have been a success.

Young-No evidence to support either way

Gannon- Rice went to the Raiders in 01 Gannon was a raider two seasons before Rice and threw for 3840 and 24 td's and 3430 and 28 td's in respective seasons. Gannon was established before Rice and a success.

Disputing that Montana or Gannon's numbers improved with Rice? (Gannon's was actually about the same except for 2002) No argument, saying that much of their success could be attributed to Rice? No buying it, they both provide a body of work that suggest otherwise as compared to the guys that Moss played with. How is that QB thing working out for Fitz these days? You have to have a guy that can get you the ball in terms of the wide receiver, and Jerry, while great in his own right, was blessed in terms of his signal callers for a career compared to Moss.

*In short, the play of Crabtree pre Kap and with Kap and Fitz with Skelton, Kolb, etc says a lot. Randy had those types of dudes for a good portion of his career throwing him the rock and still made it to the Hall of fame*

 

[NinerSickness]

Stop me when I'm wrong. Montana won his first super bowl without the presence of Jerry Rice and proceeded to claim 3 Super Bowl MVP's playing with Rice, while leading an average Chiefs team to back to back playoffs appearances including a trip to the AFC title game..I'm Good that Joe with or without Rice would have been a success.

Young-No evidence to support either way

Gannon- Rice went to the Raiders in 01 Gannon was a raider two seasons before Rice and threw for 3840 and 24 td's and 3430 and 28 td's in respective seasons. Gannon was established before Rice and a success.

Disputing that Montana or Gannon's improved with Rice? (Gannon's was actually about the same except for 2002) No argument, saying that mush of their success could be attributed to Rice? No buying it, they both provide a body of work that suggest otherwise as compared to the guys that Moss played with. How is that QB thing working out for Fitz these days? You have to have a guy that can get you the ball in terms of the wide receiver, and Jerry, while great in his on right, was blessed in terms of his signal callers for a career compared to Moss

All of what you just said is true. Rice had great QBs throwing him the ball. But that shouldn't work against him.

Moss could have had Tom Brady for the rest of his career, but he was a pain in the ass. What happens? He plays for 3 teams in 1 season and does absolutely nothong. That isn't best-of-all-time chops.

Moss had seasons of 767 & 553 yards (13 games each) in his PRIME. Rice was doing better than that at age friggn' 41! Rice's season at 41 was better than Moss' season at 35.

Larry Fitzgerald had 1400 yards with Kevin Kolb as his QB in 2011. Herman Moore was catching balls from one of the worst QBs I've ever seen play (Scott Mitchell). If you're the greatest of all time, you gotta do better than 400 yards in a season at age 35.

 

[drekeeper]

*Joe won 2 superbowl MVP's playing with Rice*