Hybrid WR/TE, the Future of NFL Offenses

[tpaulus_2]

So looking at this year's WR prospects along with contemplating the ongoing debate about whether Jimmy Graham (and Jermichael Finley last season) is a TE or WR for franchise tag purposes has got me to thinking- when do we start seeing guys who are "hybrid" or "tweener" TEs or WRs?

Kelvin Benjamin is actually the one who really made this click for me a few minutes ago- he's 6'5" and 235, which is monstrous for a WR, and he's still projected to run mid 4.5s at the combine. That's adequate, but not blazing, for a WR, yet it's elite speed for a TE. If you draft a kid like that, pack on 20 lbs of muscle over his first couple seasons while teaching him how to block (especially while lined up tight to the line) suddenly you have a huge miss-match weapon. How so? Well, think about it- a guy who can line up anywhere from split out wide on either side, to in the slot, to all the way in tight on the line is a D-coordinator's worst nightmare.

Having that guy on the field instantly makes your offense drastically more multiple. If the defense goes with their base look you can spread them out 3 wide and pass the ball. If they opt for an extra DB to cover the hybrid, then you bring him in tight and run the ball. I think being able to be that multiple from the same personnel group would be a major advantage for an offensive coordinator.

A creative one could further compound his offense's ability to be very multiple from the same position group by targeting two more "tweener" types of skill players: a good H-back, and a wideout who is equally at home in the slot or split out wide. That combination, paired with the TE/WR guy, basically gives you one position group that can run anything from the power-I to a 3-wide set, and anything in between. Toss a back like Reggie Bush out there who can line up in the slot effectively and suddenly everything from a power formation to a 4-wide is on the table from the very same personnel group. That would be crazy-hard for a defense to counter- if they get caught with the wrong group on the field they can get stung bad; remember a couple of years ago against the Broncos when the Pats flexed Hernandez into the backfield and used him as a RB with great success? It's because the Broncos opted to use an extra DB to cover Hernandez, and New England responded by forcing said DB into the box, and then running the ball down their throats.

All-in-all, with defenses today going toward more and more specialized sub-packages having an offense built around players who can fill more than one position (and do it well) is the key staying ahead of the curve. H-backs who can line up tight to the line, in the slot, or even as a lead blocker or pass-protector in the backfield already exist. WRs who can play equally well in the slot or out wide exist. RBs like Bush who are capable slot receivers exist. So we need to get ahead of the curve and find a kid like Benjamin and cross-train him to be a TE and WR and be good at both. We're really already seeing this in TEs like Jimmy Graham and Julius Thomas who can split out wide and still be effective, and the havoc that causes a defense; if you come out with a two-TE set and then flex one out wide and kick a WR into the slot you either have a LB split out wide on your TE, or a LB covering the slot WR. Pick your poison on that one. The reverse is true if you come out in a 3 wide set and the defense goes to the nickel- you just bring the hybrid guy in tight to the line, force the extra DB to play in the box, and then blast them with the run.

I think this type of player- giant WRs who lack elite top-end speed, but can also block like a TE, will be the next wave of game-changers we'll see across the league. Thoughts?

 

[Old Lion]

He could also end up being an Anquan Bolden early in his career and then become the mismatch TE after 5 years or so when he loses a step. I think he would be a good compliment to CJ for now and would make things interesting with both he and Fauria on the field at the same time.


Also, Stafford throws the ball so high we pretty much cant afford to have a receiver under 6'4"

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

He could also end up being an Anquan Bolden early in his career and then become the mismatch TE after 5 years or so when he loses a step. I think he would be a good compliment to CJ for now and would make things interesting with both he and Fauria on the field at the same time.


Also, Stafford throws the ball so high we pretty much cant afford to have a receiver under 6'4"

Damn, Spot On.....and Mayhew loves the 5' 10" 185 with some speed, not to mention the mentally insane and or the "he's coming off an ACL injury but prior to that he had a 1st rd grade". Where are those guys in this years draft.... We must have 1 in our draft, shouldn't we ?

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I think this type of player- giant WRs who lack elite top-end speed, but can also block like a TE, will be the next wave of game-changers we'll see across the league. Thoughts?

I think the idea is solid, but it will be tough for teams to find WRs who have the frame to pack on 20-30 lbs to be able to handle the blocking required at TE and still maintain the speed that would make them a mismatch.

Most teams have the TE they use in the passing game and the TE they use in the running. While I'm not a fan of Pettigrew -- that is what makes him a valuable commodity, because while he won't stretch the field like an elite TE, he is still a guy you can use in the passing game and he helps with his blocking in the running game. Guys like Jimmy Graham and Julian Thomas are basically WRs lined up as TE. They aren't doing much to help their team in the running game.

The only TE in today's game who fits the role as an above average blocking TE and an elite pass catching TE is Gronkowski. Which is why, when healthy, he is as good as it gets at the TE position.

I would LOVE to see the Lions find a player like this though. One guy who could be interesting for the Lions to look at is the TE from Washington. I think his name is Jenkins. I was reading an article on him the other day and he dropped 20 lbs and weighs 262. He may slip in the draft because of a DUI arrest a few years ago, but he is a guy who is an every down TE and it said he should run in the 4.6's.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I think the idea is solid, but it will be tough for teams to find WRs who have the frame to pack on 20-30 lbs to be able to handle the blocking required at TE and still maintain the speed that would make them a mismatch.

I agree with that for sure. It'd have to be a very particular guy. Not to keep dwelling on the same guy, but Kelvin Benjamin would be the perfect example. He's 6'5" and 235 lbs. Even if he can only add 15 pounds, as long as he can keep under a 4.6 in the 40 at 250 lbs that'd be big enough to be effective at TE.

Teams would have to cherry pick big receivers who aren't the lean, 6'4" 205 lbs speed types, but are more in line with the 225 lbs possession guys that you see a handful of every year. Alternately, teams could look for faster, leaner, athletic type TEs that run in the 4.5 to 4.6 range and work on splitting them out wide so they get used to the route tree and nuances of the game deep and along the sidelines.

It wouldn't take a drastic re-design of some of these guys who already utilize traits of both positions. Just refine their skill-set to do both jobs and they'd have a whole new wrinkle to their game that the defense has to account for.

Most teams have the TE they use in the passing game and the TE they use in the running. While I'm not a fan of Pettigrew -- that is what makes him a valuable commodity, because while he won't stretch the field like an elite TE, he is still a guy you can use in the passing game and he helps with his blocking in the running game.

Totally agree, and I'm not suggesting replacing all the TEs or all the WRs at all. I'm suggesting targeting a single guy like this (maybe another for depth if it shows some promise) to supplement both groups.

Traditional TEs and WRs would still be a necessity, no doubt about it. Pettigrew already brings value as a good blocker who can still slide into the slot and work the middle of the field, as you mentioned. Pair him with a WR/TE who can work the slot, out wide, or even slide in-line if the defense goes with 4 DBs (easier match-up in the box vs blocking a LB in-line) and you've got a ton of flexibility in what formations you can run, leaving the QB free to audible to basically whatever he wants when he sees what the defense is showing.

Guys like Jimmy Graham and Julian Thomas are basically WRs lined up as TE. They aren't doing much to help their team in the running game.

Run blocking is not their bread and butter, no. But they block better than all but the best blocking WRs in the game. They have the size and get a lot more coaching on it than WRs do. Like I mentioned above, if the defense goes small, with extra DBs, these guys are big enough to bring down on the line or tight in the slot and use as in-line blockers. That's probably tougher for them vs a LB, but that's why it's all match-up based. Where they do offer more in the running game, though, is their down-field blocking. Their superior speed and athleticism allow them to get down field and put a body between the RB and DBs.

I think the elite "joker" TEs like Graham and Thomas could really stretch a defense's limits if they refined their technique split out wide. They're too big and strong on the "possession" routes for a CB to single-cover, and too fast for most OLBs. It's a tough position for a defense to be put in, and it's a wrinkle- wrinkles require preparation during the week for the opposing team and help keep the defenders on their toes during the game.

It doesn't have to be the bulk of our offense, just a package or concept we can utilize periodically if it proves to be useful.

The only TE in today's game who fits the role as an above average blocking TE and an elite pass catching TE is Gronkowski. Which is why, when healthy, he is as good as it gets at the TE position.

Agreed. The Pats would be wise, imo, to use him as a #2 WR on the outside opposite a speedster on the other side, and a slot WR with deep speed, too. The defense would have to play both deep halves, leaving Gronk in single coverage with space to operate. Gronk on a slant with no safety help would be tough for any CB to handle. If the LBs start to drop back to take it away hammer them with a draw to Blount.

It'd work, someone email Bellichick.

I would LOVE to see the Lions find a player like this though. One guy who could be interesting for the Lions to look at is the TE from Washington. I think his name is Jenkins. I was reading an article on him the other day and he dropped 20 lbs and weighs 262. He may slip in the draft because of a DUI arrest a few years ago, but he is a guy who is an every down TE and it said he should run in the 4.6's.

I gotta check him out now, hadn't heard of him I don't think, but he sounds like the right type. I think guys like Ebron, Amaro, and Safarian-Jenkins all fit the bill of a hybrid TE/Possession WR.

There's been many successful outside receivers who have had very successful and lengthy NFL careers with 4.5-4.6 speed as possession receivers. They're strong enough to beat jams, and good at using their big frames to wall off defenders. They're not going to beat you with their speed alone, but their height advantage, long arms, and leaping ability, paired with adequate speed, make them at least something of a threat deep down the sideline.

That sounds a lot like the description of today's "joker" type TEs. I don't see why teams aren't using them on the outside for a handful of snaps each game to force the defense to adapt to a new look, and see if they show any tenancies that can be exploited.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

I gotta check him out now, hadn't heard of him I don't think, but he sounds like the right type. I think guys like Ebron, Amaro, and Safarian-Jenkins all fit the bill of a hybrid TE/Possession WR.
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Austin Seferian-Jenkins is very, very similar to Pettigrew. I do not expect him to run better than a 4.8 40 though, which is in line with Pettidrops.

Another similar TE to keep an eye on is Fresno St. Marcel Jensen. He was more productive prior to the 2013 season as David Carr had 3-4 WR sets all the damn time. Here's an analysis on him from NFL.COM. He shouldn't go before mid 4th rd.

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Marcel Jensen

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Austin Seferian-Jenkins

http://www.gobulldogs.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/marcel_jensen_460875.html


http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/benjamin_kelvin00.html

Tpaul, I like the idea you have in regards to Kelvin Benjamin, ALOT. The joker is more prominent now and I think it will be a continued trend.

BTW... You provide the best analysis breaking down schemes on this board, or any others that I had been on...

 

[tpaulus_2]

I think we have a pair of guys on the roster right now worth experimenting with.

Fist is Kris Durham. What? I know, I know... but hear me out. I think his value as a receiver is there, for sure, but ultimately he may benefit from bulking up and making blocking a big part of his repertoire. I remember reading on Mlive this season that the coaches were very impressed with how well he took to coaching and how much his blocking improved from the previous season.

His value is his size- he's the tallest WR in the NFL at a true 6'6" and route-running. But he only has adequate (maybe a bit above that) speed, running a 4.46 40 at the combine. If he can make as big of a leap this off-season as he did last off-season, then he's going to be locked in as our #2 guy; he's got the tools for sure. But if not (which is more likely, as he's still developing all parts of his game) then he's going to have to fight for a depth spot.

I think, and I'm going out on a limb here, if he could add 25 lbs to his current weight of 220-225 and still maintain a sub 4.6 40 time (he's got some wiggle room there, honestly) then he could be very useful as a hybrid guy. A size boost would help him on special teams, where he already is a steady contributor, and he's got the frame and potential (gasp! I said it... lol) to function as a #4 or #5 WR and a #2 or #3 TE. Lots of bang for the buck if (big if, I know) he can add that kind of weight and become an adequate blocker.

Hize natural size, speed, and athleticism (good showing in the vertical jump and broad jump, fair bench numbers for a WR with long arms, too) make him a great platform, but he can be re-tuned into a different type of player?



The other guy I like is Joe Fauria. I like his type better, because as an athletic TE, he's already receiving the focus on blocking. His 4.7 40 time is definitely a hinderance, but his massive size and catch radius makes him very tough one-on-one for a LB or DB. He made 6'2" CB Chris Cook look like he was a point guard trying to face up a center under the basket in our home opener this year. If we can work him with the WRs in some of their drills and training to develop his route-running he could help stretch the defense thinner across the middle, or provide a security blanket on the outside 1/3rd for Stafford if the defense decides to single him up. He wouldn't be testing anyone vertically out wide, but on a 2nd and 7 I like his odds to move the chains if he's singled up by a CB not named Sherman or Revis or Peterson...


Just food for thought- I just like the idea of trying to milk addition value out of borderline players like Durham who have enough talent and skills to stick, but are deficient enough in certain areas that they aren't yet starting-caliber. A guy like Fauria isn't borderline, but I think he's got some untapped potential given his massive frame and overall athleticism.

 

[Thruthefog]

I would rather have the hybrid FB/RB. Put Larry Csonka in our backfield with Bush, and the shit hits the fan.

 

[Rollingthndr]

My question is why do all that with Benjamin when we could just draft a guy like Jace Amaro who is already 6'5 265 and has not only better hands than Benjamin but also a better blocker with some actual experience at TE?

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

My question is why do all that with Benjamin when we could just draft a guy like Jace Amaro who is already 6'5 265 and has not only better hands than Benjamin but also a better blocker with some actual experience at TE?

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Amaro spent more than 80% of his snaps in the slot or outside. Texas Tech utilized Amaro properly when looking at what type of scheme they have run for years, whether it was under Mike Leach, Tubberville or Kingsbury. It is mostly a quick 3-step or 5-step drop for the qb and release with very little use of going through progressions/reads.

Amaro does block down-field at times, but he's not an in-line blocker by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I would rather have the hybrid FB/RB. Put Larry Csonka in our backfield with Bush, and the shit hits the fan.

Unfortunately we had one last year, until he got hurt. Montell Owens isn't an offensive threat in the role of a Csonka or an Earl Campbell, but he is a competent runner with nice bulk and good burst. He can also line up as a lead blocker, something we otherwise lack.

His ST play is string, so if he's 100% healed this spring he's got a great chance to be our 4th or 5th RB this year.

I'm not nearly as high on the hybrid RB/FB as I am on the H-back. A guy who can function as a TE, Slot WR, or FB has a lot of value, imo. James Casey is a great example, and I'm pretty sure he's a free agent. I'd love to see the Lions kick his tires a bit.

On our own roster this year was an interesting H-back in Dorin Dickerson. He's a bit of a size-speed conundrum at 6'2" and 235 lbs with a 4.40 flat 40 yard time coming out, along with off the chart measurements in the vertical (43.5") and the broad jump (125"). He played WR in college (and some LB) and has played TE, WR and H-back in the NFL so far.

He's pretty raw, but he's got the right size for a full back, with the skill-set and speed of a WR. I think he's worth holding onto at least through camp since he offers a completely different skill-set then our other backs/TEs do.

If he can learn to lead block effectively his size/speed combo could make him a sneaky-good safety valve leaking out of the backfield. Blocking would have to be his claim to fame to hold a roster spot, though. And he'd have to continue to be a core special-teamer like he was towards the end of this season.

Still basically just a spare part (role-player), but his pure speed makes him a commodity in this league. He was a good pick-up for us last season and has a good opportunity with a new coaching staff taking over...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Austin Seferian-Jenkins is very, very similar to Pettigrew. I do not expect him to run better than a 4.8 40 though, which is in line with Pettidrops.

I haven't had the chance to watch Jenkins play at all, but the articles I was reading, which was on the NFL website said he has been clocked at 4.65 for the 40 while at Washington and it said he has dropped 22 lbs, weighing 262 now with a body fat % of 10.

Only reason I even looked up the guy is because I saw he had won the Mackey as the Nation's top TE. Will be interesting to see if the work he has put in prior to the combine shows in his performance. If he runs a 4.8 -- I hope the Lions don't go near him, as they are saying he was given a 2nd round grade by the NFL advisory board and the Lions don't need to spend a 2nd round pick on another TE that is nothing more than an extension of the running game.

 

[tpaulus_2]

My question is why do all that with Benjamin when we could just draft a guy like Jace Amaro who is already 6'5 265 and has not only better hands than Benjamin but also a better blocker with some actual experience at TE?

I don't think either guy is going to fall to us in the 2nd round, and neither is good enough to take at #10 as things stand right now, so it's a moot point.

That being said, Amaro would be a good fit in this kind of role. I really like his skill-set. He'll be an impact TE in the NFL within the next 3 to 4 years...

 

[uncfan103]

I think the perfect example of this position is Eric Ebron. He already has the size you want Benjamin to have and all the other things necessary to play the position.

Ebron fits the emerging mold of his position, which increasingly walks the line between tight end and wide receiver. Two potential free agents there this offseason, New Orleans’ Jimmy Graham and Baltimore’s Dennis Pitta, are primed to argue should they be hit with the franchise tag that they actually fall into the WR category on account of how their teams employ them within their respective offenses.

He'll be viewed as a legitimate red-zone threat. He also can stretch the seam from the slot position, catch and run on short passes and simply create mismatches throughout the line of scrimmage.

Eric Ebron 2014 NFL draft: Confident (and confusing) UNC TE believes he's a game-changer | Audibles - SI.com


And he is good enough to be a top ten pick. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000327839/article/mayock-te-eric-ebron-could-be-a-top10-pick

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I think the perfect example of this position is Eric Ebron. He already has the size you want Benjamin to have and all the other things necessary to play the position.

Didn't someone mention on here that Ebron dropped around 11% of the passes thrown his way? If he has trouble catching balls from UNC's QB -- what will happen when Stafford rifles one at him?

 

[uncfan103]

Didn't someone mention on here that Ebron dropped around 11% of the passes thrown his way? If he has trouble catching balls from UNC's QB -- what will happen when Stafford rifles one at him?

I'm on my phone this is the link it gives me UNC TE Eric Ebron SPECTACULAR One-Handed Catch #SCtop10 - YouTube

Eric Ebron One-Handed TD Catch vs Georgia Tech - YouTube or

He drops passes, i don't think the percentage is that high. I'd also like to see what's considered a drop and if he's "dropping" a lot of passes a good WR/TE wouldn't be able to get to.


Also, he ran a 4.5 according to my brother

 

[jdwills126]

Detroit has that type of guy in Fauria. And if you wanted a quicker version Mike Evans has great size and if he can run in the 4.40s he very well could be the best pure WR in the draft. I get Watkins has speed and shake but I keep seeing that he is more of a catch and run type than a field stretcher. Again maybe not a problem but maybe is?

I think the hybrid position could mean a Percy Harvin type as well, WR/KR/RB. It's more of what does the team need. The Rams Austin running reverses and screens is about as effective as Reggie Bush coming out of the backfield.

 

[jdwills126]

Sorry meant to put in Evans size 6-5 and 225lbs.

Guy adds 10-15lbs and he is in the TE six range. Could you imagine the red zone Detroit could post up with……CJ, Fauria, and Evans

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

He drops passes, i don't think the percentage is that high. I'd also like to see what's considered a drop and if he's "dropping" a lot of passes a good WR/TE wouldn't be able to get to.


Also, he ran a 4.5 according to my brother

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Well, his drop rate is that HIGH 11.43%. I posted the link yesterday or the day before.. I personally watched him drop 3 easy catchable passes in UNC's bowl game along with a dozen during the regular season. In fact each time Ebron had more than 2-5 yds on the DB with clear sailing to the end zone. My outlook on him is a Hell to the NO... When you already have concentration problems at the college level, it DOES NOT get better at the PRO level...



How Are Their Hands?

As the convergence of TEs and WRs continues, drop rate becomes a much more important metric to analyze in regard to these players. Tight ends will often have higher drop rates than wide receivers, so we’ll be less harsh on them. However, if a TE is being marketed as a ‘receiving’ player, you can’t always cut them slack for drops.

- Amaro’s drop rate of 7.7% is about average for a receiving TE. If we were talking about a receiver, we’d be getting into concerning territory – but again TEs get cut a bit of slack.

- Here’s Ebron’s dirty little secret – his hands just aren’t as good as some make them out to be. He made some nice one-handed grabs, but he also has a 11.43% drop rate which is not something to be overlooked.

- Seferian-Jenkins is in wide receiver territory here, only dropping 5.4% of his total targets. Nothing to worry about with his hands.

- Right in the middle between safe and danger territory is Troy Niklas who dropped 8.57% of his catchable targets. Unlike players like Amaro and Ebron, his targets were limited and this number was more easily skewed by a few drops.

Here's the rest of the TE link
Peshek: TE Metrics - Out Of The Box - Rotoworld.com

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

Sorry meant to put in Evans size 6-5 and 225lbs.

Guy adds 10-15lbs and he is in the TE six range. Could you imagine the red zone Detroit could post up with……CJ, Fauria, and Evans

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I think all of us can put to bed for good any talk of drafting Watkins. While Evans greatly lacks proper route running, even at the college level, he has far more upside just for the simple fact his size (1) his high point catch ability (2) uses his body to block out DB's (3) his size exudes red-zone ability (4) extremely strong hands.... His biggest downfall is his immaturity and elite speed.... I will pretty much guarantee Mayhew drafts Evans at #10 (like 90%). You groom him to replace Calvin for the 2017 season as CJ's cap hits for 2015 and 2016 are 20.558 and 24.008 respectively. Evans does not have CJ's speed but all you need is Evans to be as good if not better than Alshon Jeffrey (and Jeffrey isn't a 4.48 like someone stated in here). You can always find smaller, speedy guys for the #2 or slot....(once again referencing CJ's inevitable demise or release at some time) Maybe Broyles comes back late in 2014 from his ruptured Achilles but do not count on him until 2015... Remember LeShoure's Achilles, he still wasn't the same in 2012, a year after rehabbing