Holy Shit! Cliff Lee a Philly?

[msgkings322]

No way to spin this, this sucks for the Giants. But it's fun to have the obvious team to beat, and on our terms. Pitching vs pitching. Good pitching neutralizes good hitting so their advantages in the lineup are minimized...and we have a better pen.

Still, the Giants odds to repeat just went down a fair amount.

The Giants taught us how important SP is to win titles. Philly just said, 'ok let's do this'

 

[nateistheshi]

No way to spin this, this sucks for the Giants. But it's fun to have the obvious team to beat, and on our terms. Pitching vs pitching. Good pitching neutralizes good hitting so their advantages in the lineup are minimized...and we have a better pen.

Still, the Giants odds to repeat just went down a fair amount.

The Giants taught us how important SP is to win titles. Philly just said, 'ok let's do this'

Lets not forget that their starters are far more susceptible to injury than ours are; Lee has his constant back issues, and their rotation is much older. In addition to being more injury prone, their rotation will be on the decline as many of our starters are on the rise, I think we all know that Bumgarner should be a much better pitcher this year, and Sanchez and Cain have been improving for awhile now. Also Timmy should be better this season than last. On paper their rotation is better, and it probably will be in 2011, but I wouldn't bet a cent on them being better any season after that for awhile.

 

[msgkings322]

Lets not forget that their starters are far more susceptible to injury than ours are; Lee has his constant back issues, and their rotation is much older. In addition to being more injury prone, their rotation will be on the decline as many of our starters are on the rise, I think we all know that Bumgarner should be a much better pitcher this year, and Sanchez and Cain have been improving for awhile now. Also Timmy should be better this season than last. On paper their rotation is better, and it probably will be in 2011, but I wouldn't bet a cent on them being better any season after that for awhile.

Fair enough, but let's be honest, we're trying to spin this how it's not that bad. And maybe it's not, but it is bad. No question, before this news we didn't worry about the Phils too much. Now, they leapfrogged. Doesn't mean we aren't still very good, and we should win the West, and we did beat these guys (in the toughest series of our postseason) and so on.

But I'm not happy about this.

 

[tzill]

Fair enough, but let's be honest, we're trying to spin this how it's not that bad. And maybe it's not, but it is bad. No question, before this news we didn't worry about the Phils too much. Now, they leapfrogged. Doesn't mean we aren't still very good, and we should win the West, and we did beat these guys (in the toughest series of our postseason) and so on.

But I'm not happy about this.

Another example of why MLB needs a salary cap. What's the Phils payroll now? $150MM?

Ridiculous

 

[calsnowskier]

Another example of why MLB needs a salary cap. What's the Phils payroll now? $150MM?

Ridiculous

I believe it was 150 Pre-Lee. It is now somewhere around 170 - 175...

 

[gp956]

Another example of why MLB needs a salary cap. What's the Phils payroll now? $150MM?

Ridiculous

"If anyone does not believe that we had our ass kicked
in this labor matter, they are dead wrong. We have lost the war,
and the only question is, can we live with the surrender terms."
- Cardinals owner Gussie Busch, 1976

 

[gp956]

"I am disturbed by the apparent unwillingness of some within baseball
to rise above parochial interest and to think in terms of the greater good
of the game. The squabbling within baseball, the finger-pointing,
the tendency to see economic issues as moral ones ...
all of these are contributing to our joint fall from grace."
- Commissioner Fay Vincent

 

[SF11704]

We can spin it as we wish but in the end the Phils will have a very tough rotation. In a 4 game match up with us I would take a split and be happy about it. I'm sure they would feel the same. But over the span of 162 games I'm guessing that their starting four will be good for close to 70 wins. I think we're good for low 60s. I think the difference will be their run production versus ours. I don't belive their pitching is any better than ours. They'll just score more runs.

 

[gp956]

We can spin it as we wish but in the end the Phils will have a very tough rotation. In a 4 game match up with us I would take a split and be happy about it. I'm sure they would feel the same. But over the span of 162 games I'm guessing that their starting four will be good for close to 70 wins. I think we're good for low 60s. I think the difference will be their run production versus ours. I don't belive their pitching is any better than ours. They'll just score more runs.

I think the offenses, as they look right now, will score about the same number of RPG. And, with the loss of Werth, a good staff can neutralize the Phillies as they are currently constituted.

 

[Heathbar012]

I think the offenses, as they look right now, will score about the same number of RPG. And, with the loss of Werth, a good staff can neutralize the Phillies as they are currently constituted.

Especially a staff with three solid left-handed starting pitchers and Lopez, Affeldt and Runzler in the pen. Who is the big right-handed bat on the Phillies now? Ruiz? Cool story. Rollins doesn't frighten me much from the right side of the plate. That is a lefty-heavy line-up. Lefties that can hit extremely well, but lefties nonetheless. Something tells me left-handed pitchers will become a much hotter commodity in the NL East (if they weren't already).

 

[gp956]

Especially a staff with three solid left-handed starting pitchers and Lopez, Affeldt and Runzler in the pen. Who is the big right-handed bat on the Phillies now? Ruiz? Cool story. Rollins doesn't frighten me much from the right side of the plate. That is a lefty-heavy line-up. Lefties that can hit extremely well, but lefties nonetheless. Something tells me left-handed pitchers will become a much hotter commodity in the NL East (if they weren't already).

One thing for sure... the NL is going to have one hell of an All-Star staff this year.

 

[gp956]

So, looks like a free agent staff ace is getting around 25M per these days. Zito's looking cheaper by the day! He may no longer be impossible to move.

 

[tzill]

We can spin it as we wish but in the end the Phils will have a very tough rotation. In a 4 game match up with us I would take a split and be happy about it. I'm sure they would feel the same. But over the span of 162 games I'm guessing that their starting four will be good for close to 70 wins. I think we're good for low 60s. I think the difference will be their run production versus ours. I don't belive their pitching is any better than ours. They'll just score more runs.

They are projected (using WAR) to win about 98 games this year. From the Phillie$ perspective the Lee deal was a good one as they have him through the middle of the decade wherein they have their older stars locked up. By the time Lee's contract starts to hurt them, they likely won't be contending anyway. They're going to be very good for the next 2-4 years.

Here's hoping that we continue to develop good ML talent (Belt, Wheeler, Neal) and that we fill in with quality FAs once Rowand and Zito's contracts come off the books. Of course, we'll need to lock up our young talent (Posey, Belt, Panda, Timmy, Cain, Chez, Bum, Weez) as well.

 

[calsnowskier]

They are projected (using WAR) to win about 98 games this year. From the Phillie$ perspective the Lee deal was a good one as they have him through the middle of the decade wherein they have their older stars locked up. By the time Lee's contract starts to hurt them, they likely won't be contending anyway. They're going to be very good for the next 2-4 years.

Here's hoping that we continue to develop good ML talent (Belt, Wheeler, Neal) and that we fill in with quality FAs once Rowand and Zito's contracts come off the books. Of course, we'll need to lock up our young talent (Posey, Belt, Panda, Timmy, Cain, Chez, Bum, Weez) as well.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we will not be a major player on the FA market for the next decade or so.

AND THAT IS GOOD NEWS!!!

Our payroll will have to go to the guys already in the fold, and we will likely still have let a few walk / be traded.

I hope we can continue to develop 1 near all-star caliber player per year, and it looks like we should be able to do this for the foreseeable future (Belt, Neal, Crawford, Jones, Culberson, Gillaspie, etc, etc, etc). If we can continue this trend, we can let Huff walk; we can avoid having to sign Tejada; we can avoid a future Rowand debacle.

 

[Yoshi]

I hear you msg, although am I worried? I don't know, I guess my perspective has changed quite a bit considering we won the Freaking World Series for the first time in 56 years, and for the first time in the city's history. I'm more excited too be quite frank about Lee signing with the Phils considering it is now quite obvious that they are trying to match our greatest strength in order to beat us on our terms. Since they lost Werth, they had to make a move and this was it. I don't know how good Dominic Brown/Francisco/whoever will be in replacing Werth's numbers, but their offense should be weakened a bit. Not to mention, they lost a solid right handed bat and have nothing to replace him with.

The Phillies should be a solid rival, and as SF Giants R the Best mentioned in another thread, this is shaping up to be a heck of a mini rivalry. I used to live in Bucks county so I know how arrogant those phans in Philly can get. Should be fun to go against them. Considering they signed Lee to a 5 year, 120 MM contract with an option for a 6th year for a guy who turns 33 next year, and considering their bullpen isn't as good as ours which may possibly leading to this older cadre of pitchers pitching deeper into games, I'm still liking our chances.

 

[TidrowThePitchingMaster]

One thing to be reminded of is that the Phillies play in the NL east. We don't need to worry about them until the playoffs roll along(provided we get in, which I think we will).

And once you get in, it's a crap shoot. Any-f*cking thing can happen.

The teams that should be worried right now are the Braves and Mets.

 

[TidrowThePitchingMaster]

And if you include the bullpen, I might still say that 1-12 the Giants have an edge.

 

[msgkings322]

And if you include the bullpen, I might still say that 1-12 the Giants have an edge.

Agreed. But 1-8 (lineup) Phils have the edge. Before Lee: Giants a little better overall...after Lee: Phils a little better.

As you said, it doesn't matter much until the playoffs (although they are likely to get home field throughout), but to try to spin this like it's not bad news for the Giants is naive.

We all thought Lee was going to the AL, instead he went to our main worry in the NL. The only worse thing would've been if he went to Colorado.

Yoshi, I too am more relaxed now that we got the ring, so if the Phils win this year god bless em. But this sucks for the rest of the NL. And the Yankees (which is a good thing).

 

[Heathbar012]

Agreed. But 1-8 (lineup) Phils have the edge. Before Lee: Giants a little better overall...after Lee: Phils a little better.

As you said, it doesn't matter much until the playoffs (although they are likely to get home field throughout), but to try to spin this like it's not bad news for the Giants is naive.

We all thought Lee was going to the AL, instead he went to our main worry in the NL. The only worse thing would've been if he went to Colorado.

Yoshi, I too am more relaxed now that we got the ring, so if the Phils win this year god bless em. But this sucks for the rest of the NL. And the Yankees (which is a good thing).

So Lee signing with the Phillies is a good thing, a bad thing and a slightly neutral thing. Good. I'm glad we got that worked out. .

 

[TidrowThePitchingMaster]

Agreed. But 1-8 (lineup) Phils have the edge. Before Lee: Giants a little better overall...after Lee: Phils a little better.

As you said, it doesn't matter much until the playoffs (although they are likely to get home field throughout), but to try to spin this like it's not bad news for the Giants is naive.

We all thought Lee was going to the AL, instead he went to our main worry in the NL. The only worse thing would've been if he went to Colorado.

Yoshi, I too am more relaxed now that we got the ring, so if the Phils win this year god bless em. But this sucks for the rest of the NL. And the Yankees (which is a good thing).

Not so sure of Phils having the better lineup. Star power, sure. But they lost IMO their best run producer, Werth, and all those guys are a year older.

The Giants have untapped potential for their lineup. Pablo rebounding, Belt making an impact, etc.... Bottom line is it's December and still way too early to start declaring who is better yet.

The Phillies have cashed in. They better win this year or next. Because after that they're going to be an old, injury prone team full of albatross contracts.