Hey Doug or Flaming

[Tubbs1518]

what are Gio and BJGE pass blocking grades on PFF thus far?

 

[flamingrey]

Gio: +0.8 pass blocking.

BJGE: +1.2 pass blocking.

-1.0 to +1.0 is the range for average. Above and below that is above and below average.

So I might even read that grading as BJGE being more consistent than Bernard, not necessarily BETTER. But that is just speculation on my part. It could be that BJGE is just a little bit better. It's early in the season right now, that should become more clear maybe around midseason.

 

[flamingrey]

As a rusher, Gio blows BJGE out of the water. +2.0 vs. -3.5.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I would just like to know how they determine these grades, per individual stat. Just seems like such a flexible stat based on the evaluators opinion on what is constitutionalized as good and what is not. I mean, he may not even know what the job of the player was and may be grading them wrong based on what their job actually was for that play. I don't know. I am sure the stats are "good enough", but I have my doubts on their accuracy.

 

[flamingrey]

http://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/

 

[flamingrey]

Snap Counts by Percentage per Week:

BJGE: 63, 58, 41
Gio: 37, 35, 54

BJGE has stayed in to pass block 20 times.
Gio has stayed in to pass block 12 times.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Thank for the link again.

I just read that first paragraph and think, this is too subjective already....

The goal of our detailed grading process is to gauge how players execute their roles over the course of a game by looking at the performance of each individual on each play. We look beyond the stat sheet at game footage to try to gain an understanding of how well a lineman is blocking on a given play, how much space and help a runner is being given on a play, how effectively a pass rusher brings pressure or how well a defender covers a receiver.

How well a lineman is blocking? Do they count the tackle releasing the rusher inside to the guard to protect the outside from a LB, S or CB? Do they understand a release by the guard to let the rusher through for a screen so he can get out front of the RB to help block downfield?

How much space a runner is given on a play? Do they literally measure the distance between would be tacklers in the line based on graphic coordinates on a monitor? I mean, how do they measure that distance?

How well a pass rusher brings the heat? What if the DE is supposed to push the line, not get as much penetration as a straight out rush, but make the QB still feel the heat by pushing the tackle backwards to prepare for a run or screen, while having the chance to knock a ball down? I mean do they know exactly what teh assignment of the player is?

Then you have how well a defender covers a wide receiver. Do they know if the CB was supposed to stay underneath in zone coverage while giving way to the safety over the top? Do they know if the CB is letting the WR have the sideline and using it as an additional defender and take your chances the QB can throw a perfect pass out of bounds only where the WR can catch it, while teh WR tip toes and catches the ball in bounds?

I mean do they really know what the players role is in man or zone, and who is responsible for certain guys and what they do? I just do not think they know enough to accurately grade these. Get a general idea? Sure. I can buy that. But to treat it as Gospel, well, that I am still skeptical about. Just too much interpretation and subjective for me to take it real serious. As a baseline, I can do that though.

 

[Tubbs1518]

I'm sure they understand all that. This is what these guys do for a living and have been for a while. I trust their gradings. They aren't the gospel, but they are generally pretty accurate.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I'm sure they understand all that. This is what these guys do for a living and have been for a while. I trust their gradings. They aren't the gospel, but they are generally pretty accurate.

I understand football pretty well, and I don't even have a clue sometimes what the assignments were supposed to be. Not that I am any kind of expert, because I do not claim to be, but I have a pretty good understanding of football and what they are doing out there.

I agree, it can be the baseline for evaluation, but I am not taking full stock in it.

 

[Tubbs1518]

I understand football pretty well, and I don't even have a clue sometimes what the assignments were supposed to be. Not that I am any kind of expert, because I do not claim to be, but I have a pretty good understanding of football and what they are doing out there.

I agree, it can be the baseline for evaluation, but I am not taking full stock in it.

You also don't do this for a living.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

You also don't do this for a living.

They don't play football for a living either. They are writers and stat heads. The best way to get attention on your site is to come up with your own form of grading talent whether it is 100% accurate or not (I do admit it is a decent system, otherwise it would be critisized much much more). So while they may be professional writers and statisticians, they are not football professionals that know the inner workings of a certain set of plays, who is supposed to be doing what, etc. Know what I mean?

Oh well, my opinion alone I suppose.

 

[Tubbs1518]

They don't play football for a living either. They are writers and stat heads. The best way to get attention on your site is to come up with your own form of grading talent whether it is 100% accurate or not (I do admit it is a decent system, otherwise it would be critisized much much more). So while they may be professional writers and statisticians, they are not football professionals that know the inner workings of a certain set of plays, who is supposed to be doing what, etc. Know what I mean?

Oh well, my opinion alone I suppose.

Just because they don't play football doesn't mean they don't know what is going on other wise every coach of every sport would be a former player.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Just because they don't play football doesn't mean they don't know what is going on other wise every coach of every sport would be a former player.

Do you know their qualifications then? Their resume? What they have done in the past to be deemed "professional"?

I guess I am a "professional" as well, just not at football.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Weathermen are professionals...they are wrong...a lot.

I think in the majority of plays, you can break them down and understand who is supposed to be doing what. I would say, about 95% of the time, anyone who has time to sit down and break-down film can figure it out, if they know/understand football.

There is that 5%+-, though I know what Crash is talking about. Maybe he feels it's more like 10-15%, but I think that about 90-95% of the time, they get it right when grading.

A blown coverage might make it difficult to decide who was supposed to do what. Say a CB plays low zone, and a safety moves into a deep zone like in a cover 3, covering center field. A WR goes down the side-line and is wide open because of this. In instances like that, it can be hard to predict who is to blame.

But, on most plays, you can see it develop and know who should be doing what.

 

[bengaldoug]

Keep in mind the default grade on any given play is zero. The great majority of players get a zero grade on each play. A quarterback hitting a wide open receiver in stride on a short pass over the middle gets a zero grade for the quarterback, and the receiver gets the same zero grade unless he makes a great run after the catch, forcing a defender to miss or breaking a tackle. Many successful plays don't get exceptional grades because the design of the play itself was the biggest factor in its success. An example of this would be the touchdown pass to Green, where he had beaten the defender badly and all Dalton had to do was make a decent throw while not under pressure. Dalton would get a zero on that play, while maybe Green would get a +1.0 for decisively defeating press coverage. Where a quarterback might get a plus 0.5 or even a plus 1 would be something like a very accurate pass in tight coverage, or a well thrown deep out, or a downfield throw into a tight window. Bad decisions or inaccurate throws can get the minus grades. Dalton's grades consistently reflect generally making the right play but occasional inacurracy, decision making problems under stress, and not too many plus grades because most of his completions are simple passes where being absolutely on target is only expected, and easy to do. He doesn't make enough difficult to accomplish throws to get very many plus grades. If he could just increase his average passing grade to +1.0 the offense would be much better. He doesn't have to make many great plays because of the talent of the offensive skill players around him and Gruden's offensive design that seems to create many wide open receivers. He just needs to make solid decisions under pressure and make consistently successful average throws.

 

[flamingrey]

Excellent breakdown.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Keep in mind the default grade on any given play is zero. The great majority of players get a zero grade on each play. A quarterback hitting a wide open receiver in stride on a short pass over the middle gets a zero grade for the quarterback, and the receiver gets the same zero grade unless he makes a great run after the catch, forcing a defender to miss or breaking a tackle. Many successful plays don't get exceptional grades because the design of the play itself was the biggest factor in its success. An example of this would be the touchdown pass to Green, where he had beaten the defender badly and all Dalton had to do was make a decent throw while not under pressure. Dalton would get a zero on that play, while maybe Green would get a +1.0 for decisively defeating press coverage. Where a quarterback might get a plus 0.5 or even a plus 1 would be something like a very accurate pass in tight coverage, or a well thrown deep out, or a downfield throw into a tight window. Bad decisions or inaccurate throws can get the minus grades. Dalton's grades consistently reflect generally making the right play but occasional inacurracy, decision making problems under stress, and not too many plus grades because most of his completions are simple passes where being absolutely on target is only expected, and easy to do. He doesn't make enough difficult to accomplish throws to get very many plus grades. If he could just increase his average passing grade to +1.0 the offense would be much better. He doesn't have to make many great plays because of the talent of the offensive skill players around him and Gruden's offensive design that seems to create many wide open receivers. He just needs to make solid decisions under pressure and make consistently successful average throws.

Yeah, that was well explained.

However, I haven't seen WR's getting open lately. Matter of fact, in the last couple weeks, minus a couple plays, it seems no one is getting open very well, including Green.

 

[Servo]

Yeah, that was well explained.

However, I haven't seen WR's getting open lately. Matter of fact, in the last couple weeks, minus a couple plays, it seems no one is getting open very well, including Green.

How can they get open when the ball is out in under 3 seconds? Way too many quick hit, one read plays for my liking with the talent that we have. Let the play develop and our playmakers an opportunity to beat their guys more than 5 yards down the field.

 

[bengaldoug]

How can they get open when the ball is out in under 3 seconds? Way too many quick hit, one read plays for my liking with the talent that we have. Let the play develop and our playmakers an opportunity to beat their guys more than 5 yards down the field.

Stats support your position. On 78 dropbacks where Dalton got rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, his NFL passer rating is 87.1 ....on 38 dropbacks where he held the ball 2.6 seconds or longer his rating goes up to 110.0, which is 4th best in the league when he waits a bit longer to unload.....

 

[CrashDavisSports]

How can they get open when the ball is out in under 3 seconds? Way too many quick hit, one read plays for my liking with the talent that we have. Let the play develop and our playmakers an opportunity to beat their guys more than 5 yards down the field.

Our offensive line is going to have to give Dalton some time to throw the ball then.

Seems like whenever Dalton lets something develop he is rushed.