Good News for Latimer and Lynch

[Mingo]

The obvious management decree (ie John Elway) here is to simplify the offense - then get the most you can get with the talent you've got. Natural players, but maybe slow learners - get to contribute faster in a simplified offense that plays faster. I apologize to Latimer and Lynch - but the press does portray them as dumber than average football players.

I take it then - Elway thinks the Kubiak system was wasting the talent he had stockpiled on his team - and everything - including Kubiak's retirement - came after that conclusion was reached. Now - maybe I've got it wrong here - maybe it all seemed to fall into place without any particular design behind the revamping of the coaching staff, or maybe this is an example of John Elway - making bold moves - to focus on the talent and not the system.

Just look at all the photos with Vance joseph in them recently - and especially the ones with John Elway also in them - VJ looks like a teenager who won the big prize - not necessarily as "staged" that VJ is this great locker room leader and great presence. Those kind of guys can freeze you with a look - VJ looks more like he is playing the guy on Scrubs and we are watching a situation comedy.

Certainly - Mike McCoy, Musgrave and Davidson - know John Elway hired them - it wasn't Vance Joseph. The players know it too. For good or bad - John Elway is moving closer to coaching his own team. I like it, frankly, he is building a team that he wants to- think like John Elway - Play like John Elway - and compete like John Elway - and we are getting down into the finer parts of his control over this team.

 

[Mingo]

Vance Joseph's first day as Broncos head coach 

Vance Joseph photos - to prove my point above.

 

[cdumler7]

There were so many issues this past year that made the transition for our 2 young QB's very difficult.

1) Play calling was being done by 3 different people. With Kubiak having to step back from some of his work it just made it more complicated for the players to know who to talk to with questions/concerns.

2) The offense when it is all set up can be a pretty simple one but from what I understand a huge issue is just learning the language of the play book. A single play might take 10-15 seconds just to call in the huddle. Well with a young QB not the easiest thing to learn then be in the huddle and voice that to the team.

3) With Lynch they definitely did not play to his strengths. Kubiak was bound and determined that Lynch would fit his scheme instead of fitting the scheme to him. I mean just listen to every interview since all of the hires have been made where they emphasize fitting the scheme to the players instead of the other way around. Same thing happened when Del Rio left of Elway talking about wanting to play to the strengths of the defense and attack instead of be such a simplified system that always rushes 4.

4) Obviously no running game played into both of them struggling as the season progressed. Hard to do too much when the team is down by 10-14 points early and have 3rd and long over and over again.

So plenty of things to fix.

Here is what I have gathered so far from this coaching staff. They plan on simplifying the language of the playbook. Pretty much being able to hurry things up a bit more (take advantage of that mile high air) and call things at the LOS with no issues. So play calls will take 3-5 seconds to call out making it much simpler for everybody to learn.

That sped up process should help yes guys like Latimer and Lynch. It also should help the OL to fully be on the same page of what is going on and who to block.

I would guess they will also take a play out of the Cowboys play book and simplify the reads for the QB's. The Cowboys many times would tell Dak to focus on just half the field where they would have 2-3 reads. So instead of having to examine the entire field he made his decisions quickly then either threw the ball away or took off running. Simplifying it like this especially for Paxton makes it where he can speed things up and actually use his athleticism to make some plays. I saw in that Jacksonville game he was about a half second slow in his thinking. Lanes were open for him to take off running up the middle to pick up the 1st down but he was still trying to go through his reads. Shortening down the number of places he has to look and tell him then look to take off should pay off big time of making teams have to keep somebody in the middle of the field worrying about him taking off running.

 

[Mingo]

No comment on my theory that John Elway is becoming the puppet master? The more JE learns about what he wants on his team - the more he wants control over it. I'm in for that.

 

[cdumler7]

No comment on my theory that John Elway is becoming the puppet master? The more JE learns about what he wants on his team - the more he wants control over it. I'm in for that.

Oh sorry. Yes I do think he is controlling much more of this team. The last 2 coaching staffs pretty much made all the hires by guys they had worked with and wanted. There are some here that we see with Vance Joseph that have very little connection to him so I have to think that Elway was a big part of that decision. I do think the defensive staff are ones that Vance would have picked as he did work with most of them during his time in Houston and would want to keep this defense on track. The offensive side of the ball though is Elway's brain trust. And at least for me I am very impressed by the group he put together. My only worry is that with some of these guys not having worked together and some of them having different philosophies on how to get the job done we could see some clashing among the coaches.

A great example is we have an OC and QB's coach that one is known for mostly using a PBS and the other having been a big ZBS guy. Our OL Coach and his assistant both differ on the style they like to run. So while it could be a huge strength making this team very diversified it could also lead to some issues.

 

[Mingo]

Oh sorry. Yes I do think he is controlling much more of this team. The last 2 coaching staffs pretty much made all the hires by guys they had worked with and wanted. There are some here that we see with Vance Joseph that have very little connection to him so I have to think that Elway was a big part of that decision. I do think the defensive staff are ones that Vance would have picked as he did work with most of them during his time in Houston and would want to keep this defense on track. The offensive side of the ball though is Elway's brain trust. And at least for me I am very impressed by the group he put together. My only worry is that with some of these guys not having worked together and some of them having different philosophies on how to get the job done we could see some clashing among the coaches.

A great example is we have an OC and QB's coach that one is known for mostly using a PBS and the other having been a big ZBS guy. Our OL Coach and his assistant both differ on the style they like to run. So while it could be a huge strength making this team very diversified it could also lead to some issues.

Elway - also made the decision to move Joe Woods up and let Wade Phillips go (I don't think VJ would do that to one of his mentors). Oh and it just so happens that VJ hires Tuab's assistant in KC - after John Elway brought him in for 4 hours with Taub to pick his brain.

I should point out - McCoy - Musgrave and Davidson have all coached together in the past - just not all three at the same time. What each guy has in common is that John Elway knows them personally. I take your point that the resumes impress, but the chemistry is unproven and could go bad. My point - the Elway behind the hires below VJ - means JE will have to see to supervising those guys - cause they are going to blow right past Vance Joseph. There is a quantum obviousness that JE is going to more involved with the day to day operations of the football team.

 

[cdumler7]

Elway - also made the decision to move Joe Woods up and let Wade Phillips go (I don't think VJ would do that to one of his mentors). Oh and it just so happens that VJ hires Tuab's assistant in KC - after John Elway brought him in for 4 hours with Taub to pick his brain.

I should point out - McCoy - Musgrave and Davidson have all coached together in the past - just not all three at the same time. What each guy has in common is that John Elway knows them personally. I take your point that the resumes impress, but the chemistry is unproven and could go bad. My point - the Elway behind the hires below VJ - means JE will have to see to supervising those guys - cause they are going to blow right past Vance Joseph. There is a quantum obviousness that JE is going to more involved with the day to day operations of the football team.

Some background though on why Joe Woods was going to be the guy pretty much no matter what...

1) Elway and Phillips were not seeing eye to eye heading into this season. From what I understand Phillips came to Elway wanting a raise to be the highest paid DC in the league and Elway said something along the lines of 2-years ago nobody even wanted you and we were the team that gave you a shot.

2) I've heard this now a few times from different people connected to the organization that Phillips was thought to be part of the problem when it came to the divided locker room. He was frustrated with how the offense was functioning and let his defensive players know it. While I understand his frustration he needs to remember that his players feed off his attitude and well we saw what happened.

3) Phillips from what I understand was not coming back even if Kubiak decided to coach another year. So no matter what we were going to have a new DC.

4) Other teams actually contacted the Broncos about wanting to interview Joe Woods for their DC job. Washington was actually one of those where Phillips ended up. Broncos moved quickly then to make sure to promote him and keep him in the building. Also helped in keeping the rest of the defensive staff in place.

So no I don't think even if Joseph wanted Phillips to stay that it would have happened. Also remember that Joseph is the one that called Kubiak to tell him about this Joe Woods guy. Told him he would not regret hiring this guy to his staff. So Joseph loves Woods and what he brings to the team.

I really don't know what the dynamic will be for these coaches. I think 1st year it could be incredible. They are all going to be trying to feel each other out so will have a bit more patience with each other. When it could get interesting is if some of these guys get offers to start going elsewhere. McCoy from what I understand plans on trying to be a HC again. So I only look for him to stick around a year or two. And right now I don't know how they are going to respond to Vance Joseph. I'm told he is an Alpha Male personality type which is why people love to follow him. Just have to see on the coaching staff.

 

[Mingo]

I don't mean to disparage Vance Joseph - a guy I like - but he is not a alpha male personality - or he wouldn't let Elway run his team. VJ is JE's representative in the locker room - not yet his own man. Just my opinion.

 

[CEH]

I don't mean to disparage Vance Joseph - a guy I like - but he is not a alpha male personality - or he wouldn't let Elway run his team. VJ is JE's representative in the locker room - not yet his own man. Just my opinion.

Elway had to go with VJ more for his people skills and managing the team's personalities than for his Xs and Os.
The coordinators 2nd but talent #1 drives the NFL. Maybe in the Championship and Super Bowl ganes coaching may play a bigger part because both teams will be extremely talented.

 

[Mingo]

Elway had to go with VJ more for his people skills and managing the team's personalities than for his Xs and Os.
The coordinators 2nd but talent #1 drives the NFL. Maybe in the Championship and Super Bowl ganes coaching may play a bigger part because both teams will be extremely talented.

I agree on the people skills part - Vance Joseph seems to be universally liked and respected - those are good traits and bring their own recommendation.

 

[cdumler7]

Something else to keep in mind with all of this though is that part of what blew the Broncos away when Vance Joseph was interviewing was the staff he told them he could put together. He came into the Broncos meeting with McCoy's name at the top of his list for OC. So while yes I think Elway has been a huge part of putting this coaching staff together don't think for a minute that Vance Joseph isn't a part of the discussion to make sure he at least agrees with the person they are trying to hire.

I also don't think all of these top of the line coaches come to Denver just because of Elway. They know they have to work with this young HC. They only do that if they think they can get along with Vance Joseph.

 

[Mingo]

Something else to keep in mind with all of this though is that part of what blew the Broncos away when Vance Joseph was interviewing was the staff he told them he could put together. He came into the Broncos meeting with McCoy's name at the top of his list for OC. So while yes I think Elway has been a huge part of putting this coaching staff together don't think for a minute that Vance Joseph isn't a part of the discussion to make sure he at least agrees with the person they are trying to hire.

I also don't think all of these top of the line coaches come to Denver just because of Elway. They know they have to work with this young HC. They only do that if they think they can get along with Vance Joseph.

Where does your information come from Carl? The Broncos - the Broncos website says Vance Joseph brought his own list of coaches he wanted - or reporters connected to the Broncos - yet - as I will point out - Vance Joseph did not hire a single guy he coached with elsewhere - just guys John Elway knew. I don't believe in coincidences.

 

[cdumler7]

Where does your information come from Carl? The Broncos - the Broncos website says Vance Joseph brought his own list of coaches he wanted - or reporters connected to the Broncos - yet - as I will point out - Vance Joseph did not hire a single guy he coached with elsewhere - just guys John Elway knew. I don't believe in coincidences.

I have people I work with at a website that work with guys like Mike Klis and Troy Renck. They talk to them pretty much daily. Yes most of these coaches were on his list when he was brought in for an interview. Musgrave wasn't because well at the time of his interview we didn't know he would be available. There was talk that they wanted the coach they did hire as the new OC to come in if McCoy didn't accept the job. This way worked out much better of getting both a high profile OC and QB Coach.

Also most of Vance Joseph's connections are on the defensive side of the ball. He has built up connections on the offensive side of the ball because coaches have really enjoyed getting to know him. So I do think he knows McCoy and Musgrave and others through conversations with them over the years. Have to remember Vance has been doing this a while. Just because he didn't directly work with some of these guys doesn't mean that he doesn't know them or hasn't had other coaches recommend them to him.

 

[Mingo]

I have people I work with at a website that work with guys like Mike Klis and Troy Renck. They talk to them pretty much daily. Yes most of these coaches were on his list when he was brought in for an interview. Musgrave wasn't because well at the time of his interview we didn't know he would be available. There was talk that they wanted the coach they did hire as the new OC to come in if McCoy didn't accept the job. This way worked out much better of getting both a high profile OC and QB Coach.

Also most of Vance Joseph's connections are on the defensive side of the ball. He has built up connections on the offensive side of the ball because coaches have really enjoyed getting to know him. So I do think he knows McCoy and Musgrave and others through conversations with them over the years. Have to remember Vance has been doing this a while. Just because he didn't directly work with some of these guys doesn't mean that he doesn't know them or hasn't had other coaches recommend them to him.

Oh - I thought there was an offensive coaching staff on the teams when he worked the defensive coaching side - Vance Joseph just knew these others offensive guys who worked on other teams. Two sports writers who depend on the Broncos to leak them information - don't impress me as independent sources. They are parroting what they heard inside Dove Valley = cause that is the way JE wants the story told. Or, are you saying the Klis and Renick were able to obtain VJ's list and see if for themselves prior to VJ going in for his interview. There is a difference between appearance and reality.

 

[cdumler7]

Oh - I thought there was an offensive coaching staff on the teams when he worked the defensive coaching side - Vance Joseph just knew these others offensive guys who worked on other teams. Two sports writers who depend on the Broncos to leak them information - don't impress me as independent sources. They are parroting what they heard inside Dove Valley = cause that is the way JE wants the story told. Or, are you saying the Klis and Renick were able to obtain VJ's list and see if for themselves prior to VJ going in for his interview. There is a difference between appearance and reality.

Well before McCoy was even hired we already had it leaked to every media person that McCoy was Vance's top person. And yes Vance has been in the league long enough to have built up connections outside of the teams he coached for. He has plenty of connections between ex-players he played with that are coaching, coaches he has worked with that have gone elsewhere and given him recommendations. Heck again Vance is the one that told Kubiak to get Woods. Kubiak had never worked with him and neither had Phillips yet hey they hired him because somebody they trusted called them up.

I have other sources that have said the same thing but those are the two big names most know. This isn't some huge hidden secret that he had a great coaching staff list.

 

[Mingo]

Well before McCoy was even hired we already had it leaked to every media person that McCoy was Vance's top person. And yes Vance has been in the league long enough to have built up connections outside of the teams he coached for. He has plenty of connections between ex-players he played with that are coaching, coaches he has worked with that have gone elsewhere and given him recommendations. Heck again Vance is the one that told Kubiak to get Woods. Kubiak had never worked with him and neither had Phillips yet hey they hired him because somebody they trusted called them up.

I have other sources that have said the same thing but those are the two big names most know. This isn't some huge hidden secret that he had a great coaching staff list.

Yes - guess who leaked the information? I think you are proving my point.

 

[cdumler7]

Yes - guess who leaked the information? I think you are proving my point.

A few of the HC candidates had Mike McCoy at the top of their list. This isn't something that should shock people. The way these interviews work is the coaches have a list 3 deep for every coaching position. They then give their reasons for liking each of them. So multiple people can say they would try to get McCoy since he was the top candidate available. Vance Joseph was able to get him so I would say that should be a good sign that Vance is well liked around the league.

No I did not prove your point at all. These guys that we have gotten were very high for a lot of teams. Joe Woods was wanted by at least 2 other teams to coach their defense. Musgrave had potentially offers to go be OC elsewhere but chose the broncos as QB coach. McCoy was rumored to have 3 other coaches trying to get him to come and be OC. Again chose the Broncos. Now you can say Elway was the reason they came but to me they know that the HC is who they will be talking to on a more regular basis. That is how this works. Coordinators talk to the HC and the HC talks to the FO. Elway understands this and has always lived by that set up.

 

[Mingo]

I didn't say Vance wasn't well liked or respected around the league - so that is an interesting argument on your part. I haven't insinuated Vance isn't respected.

The way interviews work in my 40 years of experience is that the guy who makes the final decision - is the guy with the most authority in the room. Now there is the possibility that Vance Joseph and John Elway think exactly alike, but I don't think it is a possibility that Vance Joseph hired anyone without Elway's approval. The fact that Elway sat in the interviews - knew the guys being interviewed from past professional dealings (and Vance didn't) - tells you who is clearly in charge.

I think - clearly - Carl - what you are arguing flies in the face of any logic. Elway dominated this process - and it came together very fast - one other thing the guys the Broncos hired are all getting paid big dollars over scale - that is the only way the Broncos could have hired guys to come in at lessor coaching staff positions. That would have been a budget decision - JE would have had to approve the extra money.
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Also- where do you get your information about the lists that coaching candidates had for their interviews?

 

[cdumler7]

I didn't say Vance wasn't well liked or respected around the league - so that is an interesting argument on your part. I haven't insinuated Vance isn't respected.

The way interviews work in my 40 years of experience is that the guy who makes the final decision - is the guy with the most authority in the room. Now there is the possibility that Vance Joseph and John Elway think exactly alike, but I don't think it is a possibility that Vance Joseph hired anyone without Elway's approval. The fact that Elway sat in the interviews - knew the guys being interviewed from past professional dealings (and Vance didn't) - tells you who is clearly in charge.

I think - clearly - Carl - what you are arguing flies in the face of any logic. Elway dominated this process - and it came together very fast - one other thing the guys the Broncos hired are all getting paid big dollars over scale - that is the only way the Broncos could have hired guys to come in at lessor coaching staff positions. That would have been a budget decision - JE would have had to approve the extra money.
\
Also- where do you get your information about the lists that coaching candidates had for their interviews?

Few things here...

1) You are making some very big assumptions that have no backing. You say Elway knew these guys and Vance didn't. How do you know he didn't know them? Vance has been in the NFL now for 12 years as a coach and has been coaching even longer than that at a high college level. Just because he hasn't worked directly with some of these guys doesn't mean he doesn't know them. The coaching world is a pretty small group. I'm sure he has called plenty of his contacts over the years to ask about these guys and how they handle coaching. Or he has actaully built relationships with some of these guys even if he hasn't actually worked with them.

2) Plenty of places to get the information. I've listened to interviews of how coaching interviews go by ex-coaches. This is what they have said of how it goes. And it makes sense to present a few options for coaches you would like to hire and then explain why you like each of them. Like I said the coaching circle is pretty small so all of these guys are picking from the same pool and would have people they like.

3) The way it works in the coaching world is that the Coordinating staff mostly has connections to the FO during the off season process but during the season it is the HC that works directly with the FO and reports back to the Coordinators. Makes sense where you use the triangle method of management of you as the top guy tell the guy below you who then portrays that message to those below and same on the way back up to the top.

4) Coaching staffs get hired very quickly every time. Elway wanted the coaching staff in place before the Senior Bowl. It is well documented that Elway and the coaching staff are all at the All-Star games and the Combine. They actually bring more to these things than almost any other team in the league.

 

[Mingo]

I think you need to look into why you take a difference of opinion so personally.