Ginn and the return game

[imac_21]

They replaced Ginn with a guy for the minimum and look what they got.

Except they replaced a PR with a non-PR. Kyle Williams entered the playoffs with 5 career punt returns.

If we could trade Ginn for a player with PR experience (Joe Adams name came up in another thread) it would be a good move. Ginn will be overpaid this offseason by someone.

 

[imac_21]

His return ability definitely factored into where we drafted him. We were overcompensating on punt returners that year like we'll be overcompensating on WR's this year to make up for atrocious play.

He was drafted in the 6th round with the 206th overall pick. I don't know that return ability was a factor.

 

[RedneckNiner]

Kyle Williams next job should be at Wal Mart or burger king.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

If money isn't a factor - I'm not sure it is with all of our cap space - then they should resign Ginn to be our KR/PR and 4th/5th WR. He is an excellent returner - Top5 someone just noted - those don't just fall off trees.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Ted Ginn is gonna be harder to replace as a quality returner than many folks seem to think. He's #3 in in the NFL in KO return average and #4 in PR average. That's better in both overall than any other returner in the league, including Hester, Cribbs and Cobb. How much of that is due to excellent STs blocking and how much is his own effort and experience, I can't really say, but his consistency on returns (along with the kickers) has helped give us the good field position that's won us more than a couple of games this season. Also, Ginn's season has been remarkably fumble-free, especially in view of previous 49er returners' seasons and in light of what happened on Sunday. I'd pay him returner $$ and keep him unless an excellent, proven returner becomes available who can also consistently catch passes.

When Ginn was out down the stretch, there was a play where one of our blockers got knocked into Williams on a punt and he fumbled. It got called back because of illegal contact by the defender and initially appeared to be an obvious call. But on second look it was actually very close had only our blocker made contact with him.

Ginn's experience increases awareness. Had Ginn been in that same situation, I can't help think he yells at his blocker to get the hell away because the ball's coming down in the area. The situation is avoided. You see how this stuff can play out. Lack of attention to details cost you a game or two in the regular season, especially with this offense. He's harder to replace than by just throwing another 6th round WR/CB/S returner into the role to fill a 5th or 6th WR spot. We've been there in the past which led us to make a move for Ginn. We've seen it again. How many more times do we need to see this before placing some value on a return specialist ahead of a bench warming receiver?

I understand the point of adding a WR to help with 3rd down conversions. However, we're talking about a 5th or 6th WR in a lot of cases. Our WR's aren't going to go down like drummers in spinal tap each and every year. These guys at the bottom of the roster find roles as specialists to make the team. So I'd much rather retain a good one in that role than get burned again. We don't have to keep Ginn now that his price likely went up, but we need someone who knows what the hell he's doing back there.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Kyle Williams next job should be at Wal Mart or burger king.

well i dont want him dropping my burger...

 

[imac_21]

If money isn't a factor - I'm not sure it is with all of our cap space - then they should resign Ginn to be our KR/PR and 4th/5th WR. He is an excellent returner - Top5 someone just noted - those don't just fall off trees.

We had a top 5 return unit. That doesn't make Ginn a top 5 KR/PR. Is Tony Romo a top 5 QB? Statistically he was. Statistically he was a top 4. Better than Stafford, Eli and Ben (in QB rating).

It's an entire unit. We have great ST all around. I rarely see Ginn get more than what is blocked for him. He doesn't make people miss and doesn't have much lateral quickness.

The problem with Williams at PR wasn't that he couldn't get the yards that Ginn can, but that he didn't protect the ball. An experienced KR/PR knows how to protect the ball.

 

[imac_21]

When Ginn was out down the stretch, there was a play where one of our blockers got knocked into Williams on a punt and he fumbled. It got called back because of illegal contact by the defender and initially appeared to be an obvious call. But on second look it was actually very close had only our blocker made contact with him.

Ginn's experience increases awareness. Had Ginn been in that same situation, I can't help think he yells at his blocker to get the hell away because the ball's coming down in the area. The situation is avoided. You see how this stuff can play out. Lack of attention to details cost you a game or two in the regular season, especially with this offense. He's harder to replace than by just throwing another 6th round WR/CB/S returner into the role to fill a 5th or 6th WR spot. We've been there in the past which led us to make a move for Ginn. We've seen it again. How many more times do we need to see this before placing some value on a return specialist ahead of a bench warming receiver?

I understand the point of adding a WR to help with 3rd down conversions. However, we're talking about a 5th or 6th WR in a lot of cases. Our WR's aren't going to go down like drummers in spinal tap each and every year. These guys at the bottom of the roster find roles as specialists to make the team. So I'd much rather retain a good one in that role than get burned again. We don't have to keep Ginn now that his price likely went up, but we need someone who knows what the hell he's doing back there.

We aren't talking about a 5th or 6th WR. We're talking about a top 4 WR. How many times did we have more than 4 WR active this year?

 

[EaseUrStorm]

He was drafted in the 6th round with the 206th overall pick. I don't know that return ability was a factor.

6th/7th round slot receivers aren't scooped up for their return ability? Low round draft picks typically find themselves competing on the verge of the roster. One adds special team value and the other doesn't. The one with special teams ability stays the other goes when it's a tie. That's the way it works. He might not have been drafted for his punt return ability specifically, but it factors in. He could easily have been drafted ahead of another receiver in that round because of his return ability.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

We had a top 5 return unit. That doesn't make Ginn a top 5 KR/PR. Is Tony Romo a top 5 QB? Statistically he was. Statistically he was a top 4. Better than Stafford, Eli and Ben (in QB rating).

It's an entire unit. We have great ST all around. I rarely see Ginn get more than what is blocked for him. He doesn't make people miss and doesn't have much lateral quickness.

The problem with Williams at PR wasn't that he couldn't get the yards that Ginn can, but that he didn't protect the ball like Ginn can. An experienced KR/PR knows how to protect the ball.

He was excellent for Miami too.

 

[imac_21]

6th/7th round slot receivers aren't scooped up for their return ability? Low round draft picks typically find themselves competing on the verge of the roster. One adds special team value and the other doesn't. The one with special teams ability stays the other goes when it's a tie. That's the way it works. He might not have been drafted for his punt return ability specifically, but it factors in. He could easily have been drafted ahead of another receiver in that round because of his return ability.

No they aren't. Some are, but not all. Was Colston drafted for his return ability? How about Cedrick Wilson? Arnaz Battle?

Williams averaged 18 PR per year at ASU and never returned one for a TD in all 4 years. His average was less than 2 per game.

I don't believe that impacted the decision to draft him. Particularly since we had already traded for Ginn.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Going into the year here were our WR's:

1. Braylon Edwards 2. Crabtree 3. Morgan 4. Ginn 5. Williams

Replacing BE with a #1 option puts Ginn at #5 at the totem pole going into next year assuming Morgan is re-signed/replaced because Williams overtook him during the year. We could easily carry 6 WR next year and he'd be a #5 or #6. He's a no. 4 on our team by default this year only.

It's not like we actively wanted to go into this year thinking hey I think our team will be really good if we only carry 4 WR's. Again, over the long haul our WR's won't implode like drummers from spinal tap to throw Ginn into a #2 #3 or even #4 role consistently.

 

[imac_21]

Going into the year here were our WR's:

1. Braylon Edwards 2. Crabtree 3. Morgan 4. Ginn 5. Williams

Replacing BE with a #1 option puts Ginn at #5 at the totem pole going into next year assuming Morgan is re-signed/replaced because Williams overtook him during the year. We could easily carry 6 WR next year and he'd be a #5 or #6. He's a no. 4 on our team by default this year only.

It's not like we actively wanted to go into this year thinking hey I think our team will be really good if we only carry 4 WR's. Again, over the long haul our WR's won't implode like drummers from spinal tap to throw Ginn into a #2 #3 or even #4 role consistently.

Based on our gameday inactives this year, Ginn would have to be a top 4 or he would be inactive. I can't think of a single game where we had 5 WRs active.

 

[sayheykid1]

Except they replaced a PR with a non-PR. Kyle Williams entered the playoffs with 5 career punt returns.

If we could trade Ginn for a player with PR experience (Joe Adams name came up in another thread) it would be a good move. Ginn will be overpaid this offseason by someone.

Kyle Williams had a lot of experience as a return man in college as well.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Based on our gameday inactives this year, Ginn would have to be a top 4 or he would be inactive. I can't think of a single game where we had 5 WRs active.

But how many games did we actually have access to 5 healthy WR's that included Braylon Edwards, Crabtree, Morgan, Williams, and Ginn? Crabtree was out the first game. Braylon got hurt early and was out for several games. Then Morgan went down. Come on.

 

[MW49ers5]

I do not understand at all why some want to get rid of Ted Ginn 'in hopes' of trying to find a cheaper version of, well, Ted Ginn. Seems like a senseless risk to me.

If you want a 'Ted Ginn' that produces more in the WR role, then simply target more the Ted Ginn we have. I'm pretty sure he has no contractual limitations on how many passes he can catch.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

I do not understand at all why some want to get rid of Ted Ginn 'in hopes' of trying to find a cheaper version of, well, Ted Ginn. Seems like a senseless risk to me.

If you want a 'Ted Ginn' that produces more in the WR role, then simply target more the Ted Ginn we have. I'm pretty sure he has no contractual limitations on how many passes he can catch.

Hey now that makes sense! Them's fighting words! :pops:

 

[imac_21]

Kyle Williams had a lot of experience as a return man in college as well.

Less than 2 PR per game in his college career. Is that really a lot of experience?

He never scored on a PR.

Adams had 33 returns this year and scored 4 times.

 

[sayheykid1]

Less than 2 PR per game in his college career. Is that really a lot of experience?

He never scored on a PR.

Adams had 33 returns this year and scored 4 times.

You said that an experienced return man holds onto the ball. Kyle Williams is an experienced return man.

How much does Adams cost to sign?

 

[imac_21]

But how many games did we actually have access to 5 healthy WR's that included Braylon Edwards, Crabtree, Morgan, Williams, and Ginn? Crabtree was out the first game. Braylon got hurt early and was out for several games. Then Morgan went down. Come on.

Kyle Williams was inactive week 1. Crabtree played in week 1, he missed week 2. Our active WRs in week 1 were Edwards, Crabtree, Morgan and Ginn.

I think cutting Edwards said a lot about our approach to WR. We really could have used him the last two games. There were no reports about him being a problem in the locker room, we didn't need the cap room. . . why cut him? it left us with essentially 3 WRs even with everyone healthy (Crabtree, Williams and Ginn).

Clearly we didn't value the WR position in our offense this year. Now, it may have related to the level of talent at the position and it could change next year if we add a few WRs with talent.

But if we take the same approach next year and only activate 4 WRs, who stays inactive next year so Ginn can play? We already have Morgan and Crabtree above him (as well as Williams, but he would be an inactive).

If we add two WRs that can play (a FA and a high draft pick) then who doesn't dress for games so we can play Ginn?