Ginn and the return game

[imac_21]

So a few weeks ago I started a thread about how I wouldn't bring Ginn back next year because he is very replaceable. Well, if he had played Sunday, we'd have one more game this year.

But I stand by what I said. Ted Ginn wasn't the difference in the game. Kyle Williams was. It wasn't explosive ST plays that were lacking (after the muff, Williams had a very nice return). It was his inability to protect the ball (and stay away from it).

I am much more bothered by the ball that hit his knee than the fumble. Fumbles happen. He could have protected it more, but at least on that one the Giants had to make a good play to get the ball. On the muff, the Giants didn't have to do anything.

I stand by what I said about Ginn as a WR, and I feel any experienced PR would have put us in the Super Bowl simply by understanding the nature of PR and not getting lost in the moment.

I feel we can upgrade significantly at WR from Ginn (and we need to upgrade at WR) without taking a serious hit at PR.

And no, I would not sign DeSean Jackson.

 

[MW49ers5]

So a few weeks ago I started a thread about how I wouldn't bring Ginn back next year because he is very replaceable. Well, if he had played Sunday, we'd have one more game this year.

But I stand by what I said. Ted Ginn wasn't the difference in the game. Kyle Williams was. It wasn't explosive ST plays that were lacking (after the muff, Williams had a very nice return). It was his inability to protect the ball (and stay away from it).

I am much more bothered by the ball that hit his knee than the fumble. Fumbles happen. He could have protected it more, but at least on that one the Giants had to make a good play to get the ball. On the muff, the Giants didn't have to do anything.

I stand by what I said about Ginn as a WR, and I feel any experienced PR would have put us in the Super Bowl simply by understanding the nature of PR and not getting lost in the moment.

I feel we can upgrade significantly at WR from Ginn (and we need to upgrade at WR) without taking a serious hit at PR.

And no, I would not sign DeSean Jackson.

Considering Williams mistakes are quite correctable and also considering he has shown he can get open and catch a football at least as well as Crabtree - would you entertain the idea of replacing both Crabtree & Ginn with Williams?

 

[imac_21]

Considering Williams mistakes are quite correctable and also considering he has shown he can get open and catch a football at least as well as Crabtree - would you entertain the idea of replacing both Crabtree & Ginn with Williams?

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't cut Williams for one mistake (I don't consider the fumble a mistake, it's like a physical error vs a mental error in baseball). But I also wouldn't go into next year with him as our RS. I mentioned in the offseason thread I started that I would look to add at least two WRs in the offseason so I would ensure one of them is a RS as well (he could also likely serve as a deep threat as most RS have great straight line speed).

I wouldn't replace Crabtree. I think he has value. He's grown on me a lot this year, despite not showing up in the playoffs. He's not a #1 WR, but I think he showed the ability to make plays at times this year. When we drafted him I said his ceiling was TJ Houshmandzadeh in his prime. I would change that now. I think Crabtree could be a FANTASTIC slot WR. I think his ceiling is Wes Welker (I highly doubt he achieves that though).

His short area quickness is very good, and despite the Saints game, he has developed fairly reliable hands. He's the one guy on the team this year that showed an ability to make the difficult catch with any sort of consistency (the catch on 3rd down this week was fantastic, but it was a bad throw). I think he could be a very good 3rd and short WR, but doesn't bring much of a threat beyond 12 yards at all.

The main reason I wouldn't replace Ginn and Crabtree with Williams is we have no depth there right now. We need to add 2 or 3 WRs this offseason, and getting rid of 2 would kill us.

Also, cutting Edwards was a mistake. Keeping him on the roster was not going to hurt us. I would have felt a lot better yesterday with Edwards on the field as the 3rd WR than Swain.

 

[threelittleturds]

I'd love it if the 49ers kept Ginn as a return specialist, but you know, I just can't feel good about taking the luxury of wasting a WR spot with a guy who just isn't that good of a WR when this team desperately needs to improve that position.

 

[MW49ers5]

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't cut Williams for one mistake (I don't consider the fumble a mistake, it's like a physical error vs a mental error in baseball). But I also wouldn't go into next year with him as our RS. I mentioned in the offseason thread I started that I would look to add at least two WRs in the offseason so I would ensure one of them is a RS as well (he could also likely serve as a deep threat as most RS have great straight line speed).

I wouldn't replace Crabtree. I think he has value. He's grown on me a lot this year, despite not showing up in the playoffs. He's not a #1 WR, but I think he showed the ability to make plays at times this year. When we drafted him I said his ceiling was TJ Houshmandzadeh in his prime. I would change that now. I think Crabtree could be a FANTASTIC slot WR. I think his ceiling is Wes Welker (I highly doubt he achieves that though).

His short area quickness is very good, and despite the Saints game, he has developed fairly reliable hands. He's the one guy on the team this year that showed an ability to make the difficult catch with any sort of consistency (the catch on 3rd down this week was fantastic, but it was a bad throw). I think he could be a very good 3rd and short WR, but doesn't bring much of a threat beyond 12 yards at all.

The main reason I wouldn't replace Ginn and Crabtree with Williams is we have no depth there right now. We need to add 2 or 3 WRs this offseason, and getting rid of 2 would kill us.

Also, cutting Edwards was a mistake. Keeping him on the roster was not going to hurt us. I would have felt a lot better yesterday with Edwards on the field as the 3rd WR than Swain.

Fair enough.

I'm sticking with my minority belief that Ginn is a better WR than what some/many/most believe. There can be no question that WR is our top priority. So, with Ginn being a FA it will be interesting to see where the coaching staff lands on this topic as I don't see us keeping Ginn solely for the role of a RS.

Me, I'm dumping Crabtree and bringing in someone over the top of Morgan. Morgan has been (quietly) our most consistent and reliable WR since Oct/Nov 2009 and I believe would be more to much more productive with Crabtree's targets. I would then open the competition for the slot between Williams, Ginn, Bogan & others.

I would use a situational or split depth chart so we can keep both speed and possession on the field for the majority of our passing plays which would work well to open up Smith's strength zones and passing routes which are middle of the field and outs.

As for Edwards, yeah, I would like to know what that was all about as well. Was it a mistake to release Edwards or a mistaken evaluation of Joe Hastings?

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Ginn is limited at WR by his bad hands.

 

[imac_21]

Does anyone have a link to Crabtree's comments? I saw talk of them in another thread, but I went dark after the game and haven't read any postgame stuff.

 

[Yadahell]

Does anyone have a link to Crabtree's comments? I saw talk of them in another thread, but I went dark after the game and haven't read any postgame stuff.

I haven't been able to find the audio on that, but this is what he said:

"Sometimes, you've just got to move the ball," Crabtree said, his frustration palpable. "You've got to make plays. You've got to give people chances to make plays. You've got to make plays."

from:

49ers Blog and Q&A: Free agency: Ginn states his case by his absence

 

[sayheykid1]

They replaced Ginn with a guy for the minimum and look what they got.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

My stance was to keep Ginn. You can lean on him to perform as a PR like you can lean on Akers to make FG's. I was hoping Williams would prove me wrong. Unfortunately it didn't go down that way. Williams foreshadowed this down the stretch with some shaky return efforts that were overlooked by a few great returns. I was literally cringing even before he made that first diving fair catch. He does not pass the eyeball test as far as catching and securing the ball. He's got everything else.

Any weakness that you have is heightened in these games and this one exploded.

Right now we're in effectively the same situation that prodded us to trade a 5th rounder for Ginn's services.

 

[EKmane]

I haven't been able to find the audio on that, but this is what he said:

"Sometimes, you've just got to move the ball," Crabtree said, his frustration palpable. "You've got to make plays. You've got to give people chances to make plays. You've got to make plays."

from:

49ers Blog and Q&A: Free agency: Ginn states his case by his absence

Can someone please post this quote in the Alex Smith's Future thread. I just said something along those lines a little while ago. Maybe those guys will get mad at Crabtree too, maybe he's an arm chair gm or whatever that corny shit was.

 

[MW49ers5]

Does anyone have a link to Crabtree's comments? I saw talk of them in another thread, but I went dark after the game and haven't read any postgame stuff.

Here's one - but I believe there are others...The Maiocco and Clark vids are worth a view as well.

Post Game Comments

 

[EKmane]

They replaced Ginn with a guy for the minimum and look what they got.

Wrong, Williams wasn't brought on the team for his return skills. He was drafted the same season that Ginn was traded for to return kicks. Williams was wr depth.

A guy like Joe Adams is who I would like for us to draft. He's a stud in the return game, as well as can challenge to be the slot, let alone the 4th wr.

 

[sayheykid1]

Wrong, Williams wasn't brought on the team for his return skills. He was drafted the same season that Ginn was traded for to return kicks. Williams was wr depth.

A guy like Joe Adams is who I would like for us to draft. He's a stud in the return game, as well as can challenge to be the slot, let alone the 4th wr.

What was wrong with what I posted? The 49ers did replace Ginn with a minimal salary guy.

 

[BallsOfFury]

Ted Ginn is gonna be harder to replace as a quality returner than many folks seem to think. He's #3 in in the NFL in KO return average and #4 in PR average. That's better in both overall than any other returner in the league, including Hester, Cribbs and Cobb. How much of that is due to excellent STs blocking and how much is his own effort and experience, I can't really say, but his consistency on returns (along with the kickers) has helped give us the good field position that's won us more than a couple of games this season. Also, Ginn's season has been remarkably fumble-free, especially in view of previous 49er returners' seasons and in light of what happened on Sunday. I'd pay him returner $$ and keep him unless an excellent, proven returner becomes available who can also consistently catch passes.

 

[Flyingiguana]

well we didn't really need ginn to get to the big show. we needed to bench kyle when he dove for the fair catch and put reggie smith in there. i don't think punt returners who played for oklahoma would ever do something like that. they're coached too well.

i think ginn could have broke one of a couple kick returns for a score. there was a lane and kyle wasn't fast enough to hit it

 

[Epic Voidfield]

i think ginn could have broke one of a couple kick returns for a score. there was a lane and kyle wasn't fast enough to hit it

Oh, you mean like the only 2 returns he had all season since week 1 with perfect weather conditions and perfect blocking by his teammates?

 

[EKmane]

What was wrong with what I posted? The 49ers did replace Ginn with a minimal salary guy.

You know it's not the same as drafting a return specialist/4th wr. Williams just happened to be able to return kicks, as well as a wr option.

I'll tell you though, I'm glad they found out for sure now that Williams isn't the guy for that job, I couldn't handle a whole season of that crap.

I would love to see Joe Adams in Ginn's spot though, we'd be in for a treat.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Wrong, Williams wasn't brought on the team for his return skills. He was drafted the same season that Ginn was traded for to return kicks. Williams was wr depth.

A guy like Joe Adams is who I would like for us to draft. He's a stud in the return game, as well as can challenge to be the slot, let alone the 4th wr.

His return ability definitely factored into where we drafted him. We were overcompensating on punt returners that year like we'll be overcompensating on WR's this year to make up for atrocious play.

 

[Texas9erFan]

I like Ginn as special teams guy. IF we can keep him for that only, we should. But our receiving corp is in need of some serious rebuilding. I think I'd rather see Crabs traded for a draft pick or two than Ginn.

I dunno, finding NFL talent is a skill. Nobody saw how good Brady would be when he came in in the 6th round. And I'm sure it's the same with receivers. Crabs SHOULD be a great receiver... but he's not.

Less than a week into the off-season and there's nothing to do but speculate. ugh.