Does Gruden get the same benefit of the doubt that Gibbs got in his first go 'round?

[Sharkinva]

This thread wasn't intended to create friction between anyone, or for that matter turn into a debate barely related to the topic. One person wrote 0-1 as the turning point while some others indicated a losing season. Let's not get away from the point which is........1.At what point do we get an all out negative fan and media reaction to an 0 and something start. 2. The patience of one Daniel Snyder to that horrible start.

To answer your question.... 0-6 would officially start the shitstorm in DC. Anything worse than that and Dan would demand some ones job. Not gruden or Allen, possibly Haslett or McVey.

 

[skinsdad62]

So you are telling me you think the owner, press and fanbase will just shrug and say oh well if this team finishes 6-10?? Yea right. You know Im right even if it weakens your position. If this team isnt a serious contender for the Division the entire team will get shredded, your hatred for the Defensive Coordinator not withstanding.

i dont think so , most people understand what we have here and that it will take time . after a 3-13 debacle fans still turn out in droves to our practices

 

[Sharkinva]

i dont think so , most people understand what we have here and that it will take time . after a 3-13 debacle fans still turn out in droves to our practices

Again I will ask.. whats not to understand??

We have what some claim to be a franchise QB
We have what most would consider not one but TWO #1 WRS
We have what many are considering one of the deepest WR groups in the league
We have a 2nd year TE than many are saying has pro bowl potential
We have a legit Pro Bowl RB and LT

I will give you that the rest of the line is pedestrian or questionable

Now you will say we cant win with our defense.. but fully HALF of the teams who made the playoffs had defenses ranked WORSE than ours.

You blame the coach for 99% of our issues last year. The team apparently is doing the same, and the QB has made it rather clear he thinks it was all Shanahans fault.

Well Mike is gone. the talent has been upgraded.. so 12-4 should be easy right??

 

[skinsdad62]

Again I will ask.. whats not to understand??

We have what some claim to be a franchise QB
We have what most would consider not one but TWO #1 WRS
We have what many are considering one of the deepest WR groups in the league
We have a 2nd year TE than many are saying has pro bowl potential
We have a legit Pro Bowl RB and LT

I will give you that the rest of the line is pedestrian or questionable

Now you will say we cant win with our defense.. but fully HALF of the teams who made the playoffs had defenses ranked WORSE than ours.

You blame the coach for 99% of our issues last year. The team apparently is doing the same, and the QB has made it rather clear he thinks it was all Shanahans fault.

Well Mike is gone. the talent has been upgraded.. so 12-4 should be easy right??

on paper most things on offense look great ON PAPER . our defense is aging with a weak secondary and as the seahawks showed us in the superbowl a good defense make the best qb in the game drop a whopping 8 points on them

as for the coach i dont blame him for 99% of our problems . we dont have the talent we need to be considered a perennial contender . we have finished LAST 5 of 6 years , 3 of 4 under shanny .

that is what has happened ON THE FIELD

the 2 top teams in the NFC last year have stellar defenses the guys playing for the championships have good defenses and when our qb got hurt in the playoff game our defense couldnt hold

 

[Sharkinva]

OK Skinsdad... so by your logic, when should we EVER expect to improve.

You call for us to go 6-10 this year because we dont have the talent or coaching on defense to be any better. So we go 6-10 this year, Haslett gets fired and most of the defense gets cut because lets face it they are the worst defense in the galaxy.

We hire a new defensive coach and draft a bunch of young guys at which point I would bet my left nut you would once again predict we are a 6-10 team because we have a new defensive coach and a bunch of new defensive players.

Since we have been a 6-10 team the past six years according to you. And we are doomed to be a 6-10 team this year despite the "improvements" we have made. Whats it going to take for this team to ever in your eyes be a better than 6-10 team??

Side note, Im willing to bet this is the only fanbase that on the one hand proclaims to have a franchise QB, but then turns around and says we will be lucky to win 6 games this season.

 

[Sportster 72]

OK Skinsdad... so by your logic, when should we EVER expect to improve.

You call for us to go 6-10 this year because we dont have the talent or coaching on defense to be any better. So we go 6-10 this year, Haslett gets fired and most of the defense gets cut because lets face it they are the worst defense in the galaxy.

We hire a new defensive coach and draft a bunch of young guys at which point I would bet my left nut you would once again predict we are a 6-10 team because we have a new defensive coach and a bunch of new defensive players.

Since we have been a 6-10 team the past six years according to you. And we are doomed to be a 6-10 team this year despite the "improvements" we have made. Whats it going to take for this team to ever in your eyes be a better than 6-10 team??

Side note, Im willing to bet this is the only fanbase that on the one hand proclaims to have a franchise QB, but then turns around and says we will be lucky to win 6 games this season.

He makes a very strong arguement. It is funny that many want to blame the Shanahan's for problems over the last few years but then give the talent acquired a pass because they aren't good enough or because we have new coaches. It can't be both ways.

 

[skinsdad62]

OK Skinsdad... so by your logic, when should we EVER expect to improve.

You call for us to go 6-10 this year because we dont have the talent or coaching on defense to be any better. So we go 6-10 this year, Haslett gets fired and most of the defense gets cut because lets face it they are the worst defense in the galaxy.

We hire a new defensive coach and draft a bunch of young guys at which point I would bet my left nut you would once again predict we are a 6-10 team because we have a new defensive coach and a bunch of new defensive players.

Since we have been a 6-10 team the past six years according to you. And we are doomed to be a 6-10 team this year despite the "improvements" we have made. Whats it going to take for this team to ever in your eyes be a better than 6-10 team??

Side note, Im willing to bet this is the only fanbase that on the one hand proclaims to have a franchise QB, but then turns around and says we will be lucky to win 6 games this season.

uh , shark we won 3 games last year . winning 6 games is an improvement

as for hazmat i think you have to give him 3 years like gruden . he has an old d/line and a very suspect secondary

 

[Sharkinva]

uh , shark we won 3 games last year . winning 6 games is an improvement

as for hazmat i think you have to give him 3 years like gruden . he has an old d/line and a very suspect secondary

If the best we can realistically expect is 6-10... then signing Hatcher, Jackson and Roberts were mistakes. Thats alot of money to spend just to still be one of the worst teams in the league.

And the eagles only won 4 games in 2012. The Colts only won 2 games in 2011.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

If the best we can realistically expect is 6-10... then signing Hatcher, Jackson and Roberts were mistakes. Thats alot of money to spend just to still be one of the worst teams in the league.

And the eagles only won 4 games in 2012. The Colts only won 2 games in 2011.

6-10 to me is being cautiously optimistic. Especially given last years record. Of course you can't use the past season to correctly predict the future, else we'd have multiple division titles for one NFCE team...too many variables in terms of players, health, other teams health, luck, etc...any given Sunday remains the rule for me.

If things gel sooner rather than later, the ceiling is higher and the division can be had.

 

[j_y19]

6-10 is cautiously optimistic? Really? If that's what we should expect, then we might as well pack it in now. This team has talent. There are 6-8 potential PB players on this team. There are young players that will just be coming into their own. There is no reason why this team can't win at least 8 games, barring any key injuries. We better have a top 5 offense with the talent we have. IF we can get our defense to perform at a average level, we should win more than we lose.

I get the setting of low expectations after the last 20 years, but we really need to change the culture of this franchise where underperforming is always justified (lack of talent, cap space, injuries, etc) and expected. At almost every critical position, we have either elite or above average talent. Our competition in our Division is not strong. This year should be our year to begin the change from a losing franchise to a perennial playoff challenger.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

6-10 is cautiously optimistic? Really? If that's what we should expect, then we might as well pack it in now. This team has talent. There are 6-8 potential PB players on this team. There are young players that will just be coming into their own. There is no reason why this team can't win at least 8 games, barring any key injuries. We better have a top 5 offense with the talent we have. IF we can get our defense to perform at a average level, we should win more than we lose.

I get the setting of low expectations after the last 20 years, but we really need to change the culture of this franchise where underperforming is always justified (lack of talent, cap space, injuries, etc) and expected. At almost every critical position, we have either elite or above average talent. Our competition in our Division is not strong. This year should be our year to begin the change from a losing franchise to a perennial playoff challenger.

That's why I have a cautiously optimistic outlook. When I actually see it Gel on the field, believe me I'll go full on HOMER. I think we are moving in the right direction, but we still need depth and some pieces on D and STs for me to raise that flag just yet...

 

[Sharkinva]

As I said before Cali... name me another team who thinks they have a franchise QB, but expects to lose?? Im not picking fights, Im just saying that with the talent we have, 10-6 should be cautiously optimistic.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

As I said before Cali... name me another team who thinks they have a franchise QB, but expects to lose?? Im not picking fights, Im just saying that with the talent we have, 10-6 should be cautiously optimistic.

I can't name another team because none of them have a QB that had the injury our QB sustained 2years ago. For the second time. Even Brady had reduced production when returning from his injury. And he hadn't injured it twice. Lot of question marks to be answered. Gotta see it on the field for me to go homer on the prediction.

 

[Sharkinva]

I can't name another team because none of them have a QB that had the injury our QB sustained 2years ago. For the second time. Even Brady had reduced production when returning from his injury. And he hadn't injured it twice. Lot of question marks to be answered. Gotta see it on the field for me to go homer on the prediction.

13-3 would be the homer pick. But based on the talent we have on offense alone, this team should be no worse than 8-8. That is, if the talent we have on offense is as good as advertised.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

13-3 would be the homer pick. But based on the talent we have on offense alone, this team should be no worse than 8-8. That is, if the talent we have on offense is as good as advertised.

I can see that as a very valid prediction for peeps. But I down grade it because of a new coach, WRs and the time to gel myself.

 

[skinsdad62]

shark , RG3 has to PROVE he is a franchise qb . so far that is in question

chemistry is also something we dont know about j-y19 i have seen us with quite a few potential pro bowl players and we still lose

the defense is still a huge question. we have quite a few over 30 guys . cofield , hathcher , golston bowen , merriweather , and clark . the chance of injury does go up when you are over 30

what if clark pulls an LBF ? he declines , then what , rambo ?

now i know you all will tell me about the "what if game " but the facts are injuries happen and if they happen at say d/line , safety , o/line and te we could be hurt pretty badly

see i dont see the depth to boost us higher then 6 wins .

however if everything goes well , injuries are limited , the d/line rotation works and the secondary makes a decent improvement . i can see us winning the division

but with a 1st year coach who is unproven and a shaky defense i say 6-10 is the area we will end up at

and as long as we have been on this board , my 6-10's are way more in line with the team that has finished last 5 of 6 years

when you get a new coach you have to figure year one is to see what you have , year 2 is to acquire the parts and year 3 is when it should come together

its called BUILDING and it doesnt happen over night and the skins will never be winners if the fan base wants to cut corners in hopes of getting there and howls at the moon because it doesnt happen fast enough

for twenty years we have gone through this . until the fan base , the owner and everyone else doesnt allow the team to get a system in that takes advantage of our draft , lets a coach develop his system and use free agency wisely and not as a stop gap filler then we will spin our collective wheels

the fan base wanted us to gut the draft for RG3 (or a franchise qb ) they advocated it for bradford and for san-freaking chez . at the expense of building our LOS into top notch units (which i have advocated for almost 13 years running )

well they did what you wanted , they risked the picks and may not have gotten that guy (which is why you dont do it by the way ) and now when it fails you want to bail on what you said we needed to have

my principles have been the same . build the LOS up 1st then get the skill players . give draft picks 3 years to see what they have . give a new HC 3 years to get his system in place , value your draft picks, and sign FA's to reasonable contracts and make sure they are under age 28 and you need a top ten defense

they havent changed nor will they

RG3 is our qb , he hasnt proven he is a franchise qb for sure . it is year 3 and i expect he will have a very good year . if he doesnt then you will have to question if he will be an avg to good qb and then focus on other parts of the team to assist him or you look to dumping him

then you will here me pound the table yet again for draft help at the LOS

 

[Sharkinva]

So as to avoid writing a book, I will just point out two things.

1. Most people do consider RG3 to be a franchise QB.

2. When we had a good O-line and defense and I was screaming that we needed to go out and make a move for a franchise QB, almost every one was saying dont worry.. .campbell will come around.

 

[j_y19]

shark , RG3 has to PROVE he is a franchise qb . so far that is in question

chemistry is also something we dont know about j-y19 i have seen us with quite a few potential pro bowl players and we still lose

the defense is still a huge question. we have quite a few over 30 guys . cofield , hathcher , golston bowen , merriweather , and clark . the chance of injury does go up when you are over 30

what if clark pulls an LBF ? he declines , then what , rambo ?

now i know you all will tell me about the "what if game " but the facts are injuries happen and if they happen at say d/line , safety , o/line and te we could be hurt pretty badly

see i dont see the depth to boost us higher then 6 wins .

however if everything goes well , injuries are limited , the d/line rotation works and the secondary makes a decent improvement . i can see us winning the division

but with a 1st year coach who is unproven and a shaky defense i say 6-10 is the area we will end up at

and as long as we have been on this board , my 6-10's are way more in line with the team that has finished last 5 of 6 years

when you get a new coach you have to figure year one is to see what you have , year 2 is to acquire the parts and year 3 is when it should come together

its called BUILDING and it doesnt happen over night and the skins will never be winners if the fan base wants to cut corners in hopes of getting there and howls at the moon because it doesnt happen fast enough

for twenty years we have gone through this . until the fan base , the owner and everyone else doesnt allow the team to get a system in that takes advantage of our draft , lets a coach develop his system and use free agency wisely and not as a stop gap filler then we will spin our collective wheels

the fan base wanted us to gut the draft for RG3 (or a franchise qb ) they advocated it for bradford and for san-freaking chez . at the expense of building our LOS into top notch units (which i have advocated for almost 13 years running )

well they did what you wanted , they risked the picks and may not have gotten that guy (which is why you dont do it by the way ) and now when it fails you want to bail on what you said we needed to have

my principles have been the same . build the LOS up 1st then get the skill players . give draft picks 3 years to see what they have . give a new HC 3 years to get his system in place , value your draft picks, and sign FA's to reasonable contracts and make sure they are under age 28 and you need a top ten defense

they havent changed nor will they

RG3 is our qb , he hasnt proven he is a franchise qb for sure . it is year 3 and i expect he will have a very good year . if he doesnt then you will have to question if he will be an avg to good qb and then focus on other parts of the team to assist him or you look to dumping him

then you will here me pound the table yet again for draft help at the LOS

Dad, I don't disagree with anything you wrote. We do run the risk of injury, but all teams do. While Gruden is unproven as an NFL HC, the team he has inherited is way better than the one Shanahan (or Zorn, for that matter) inherited. I don't see this a typical 3 year build. I think we are structurally already built, we just need to shore up a few areas in the next 2 years. I still maintain that the talent level on this team is good enough this year to win more than they lose. But, as you pointed out, the culture of losing has permeated this franchise since Dan has owned it and no HC has really been able to change it. This will be Gruden's biggest challenge. To make losing unacceptable and to hold those failing accountable. Shanahan didn't do it. A perfect example is the STs coach last year. He should have been fired mid season. Now shanahan did use a couple of players as examples, but that we less about winning and losing and more about showing he was the sheriff and everyone better toe his line. So if Gruden wants to change this, he better be prepared to hold Haslett accountable if the defense doesn't improve. There is no reason why it shouldn't (save significant injuries to key players).

But back to the original question, Gruden will not get the same latitude Gibbs I had if for no other reasons that it is a different era and a very different owner. I also agree with Shark that if we go out and lay an egg and start 0-6, the fans will revolt and demand Gruden's head. I may very well lead that charge. This team can win if it has the right leadership.

 

[Stymietee]

I'm hoping that Gruden gets a pass, but with this fan base and the proclivity of this media to harp on bad news, Mr. Snyder will be well tested in avoiding a quick reaction.


I'm not sure that Haslett gets the same benefit of the doubt, especially if it becomes clear that this seasons version of Washington football looks a lot like those of the Jurgensen years. (Lots of scoring and defense loses games)


Improvement is in the eye of the beholder, there are some who would argue that anything above those 3 wins would be exactly that. I personally have a formula that I use to indicate improvement considering that we have what many deem to be a franchise QB.


Two seasons 13 wins average out to be 6.5 wins.....anything above 7 shows improvement to me.

 

[Stymietee]

But back to the original question, Gruden will not get the same latitude Gibbs I had if for no other reasons that it is a different era and a very different owner. I also agree with Shark that if we go out and lay an egg and start 0-6, the fans will revolt and demand Gruden's head. I may very well lead that charge. This team can win if it has the right leadership.

While I'm tempted to agree with you, Mr. Snyder has been through his trial by fire with all the meddling charges he's had to endure in previous years. It is possible that he will, as you've written give the fans Gruden's head. Maybe he'll surprise us all and stick with his coach despite 0-6, then be hailed as a genius when the teams' fortunes turn for the better.