Coffee talk

[Bloody Brian Burke]

One thing really bothering me right now: why is it that when Barack Obama negotiates with Iran, with whom the US hasn't had a relationship with in nearly 40 years, or Cuba, whose leader the US had spent half a century trying to assassinate and once arranged for nuclear missiles to be installed and pointed at the US, he's praised as someone trying to "turn the page" but Donald Trump picks up a call from the president of a country that has a democratic government and leadership that doesn't call the US some form of "The Great Satan" and suddenly every second news story I come across is about how Trump is making a big mistake offending China and this will doom American foreign policy for his term and all this other shit?

There's going to be plenty to criticise Trump on. Having a conversation with the leader of a country America does $70 billion worth of trade with annually is not one of them.

 

[BGDave]

One thing really bothering me right now: why is it that when Barack Obama negotiates with Iran, with whom the US hasn't had a relationship with in nearly 40 years, or Cuba, whose leader the US had spent half a century trying to assassinate and once arranged for nuclear missiles to be installed and pointed at the US, he's praised as someone trying to "turn the page" but Donald Trump picks up a call from the president of a country that has a democratic government and leadership that doesn't call the US some form of "The Great Satan" and suddenly every second news story I come across is about how Trump is making a big mistake offending China and this will doom American foreign policy for his term and all this other shit?

There's going to be plenty to criticise Trump on. Having a conversation with the leader of a country America does $70 billion worth of trade with annually is not one of them.

That type of reasoned thought has no place in 21st century America.

 

[BGDave]

Pretty sure I dated her in college.


/the one on the left, you sickos.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

That type of reasoned thought has no place in 21st century America.

Everybody just seems to be assuming that he made the call unaware that no president since Nixon had spoken to the leader of Taiwan.

Seeing a lot of assuming in the news lately. It's getting pretty annoying considering it's what "alt-right" websites and fake news people did to Obama for the past 8 years. It's a little stranger when it's the NY Times or Washington Post doing it though.

 

[forty_three]

One thing really bothering me right now: why is it that when Barack Obama negotiates with Iran, with whom the US hasn't had a relationship with in nearly 40 years, or Cuba, whose leader the US had spent half a century trying to assassinate and once arranged for nuclear missiles to be installed and pointed at the US, he's praised as someone trying to "turn the page" but Donald Trump picks up a call from the president of a country that has a democratic government and leadership that doesn't call the US some form of "The Great Satan" and suddenly every second news story I come across is about how Trump is making a big mistake offending China and this will doom American foreign policy for his term and all this other shit?

There's going to be plenty to criticise Trump on. Having a conversation with the leader of a country America does $70 billion worth of trade with annually is not one of them.

It's about appeasing the larger frenemy, China. China feels that Taiwan belongs to them (Taiwan feels otherwise) and since Nixon and Mao met, the "official" US stance is that China is, for lack of a better term, "right". Speaking directly with Taiwan is akin to jumping the chain of command in China's eyes.

I am not debating whether China is right or not. Just stating why the relationship is what it is.

China holds exceptional power over a lot of the world. And pissing them off is not going to be good for anyone. Trump has already said he'd tear up the TPP, which China wants us to do. Trump wants it torn up because he sees it as a money losing proposition (and it is). But China wants it torn up, so they can close us out of that market even more. China can expand it's influence in the region where just about everything on earth is made without US interference, change global currency markets on a whim (and crash our economy) and continue to build influence in Africa where they are building infrastructure and winning over the people in that part of the world.

China has Nukes. China has a giant army. China has influence over crazy dictators who also have Nukes.

And president sweet potato thinks he's going to hurt them with tweets.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

It's about appeasing the larger frenemy, China. China feels that Taiwan belongs to them (Taiwan feels otherwise) and since Nixon and Mao met, the "official" US stance is that China is, for lack of a better term, "right". Speaking directly with Taiwan is akin to jumping the chain of command in China's eyes.

I am not debating whether China is right or not. Just stating why the relationship is what it is.

China holds exceptional power over a lot of the world. And pissing them off is not going to be good for anyone. Trump has already said he'd tear up the TPP, which China wants us to do. Trump wants it torn up because he sees it as a money losing proposition (and it is). But China wants it torn up, so they can close us out of that market even more. China can expand it's influence in the region where just about everything on earth is made without US interference, change global currency markets on a whim (and crash our economy) and continue to build influence in Africa where they are building infrastructure and winning over the people in that part of the world.

China has Nukes. China has a giant army. China has influence over crazy dictators who also have Nukes.

And president sweet potato thinks he's going to hurt them with tweets.

I'm well aware of the situation between the two. I just disagree with "pissing them off is not going to be good for anyone". Why not? They're shitting on US influence everywhere they can. They're propping up Putin by signing massive deals for his natural gas supply. They're building artificial islands to support their militarist expansionism. If talking to the democratically-elected head of a friendly gov't that we already ship arms to anyway is going to piss them off that much I hope he calls her every day. Fuck China.

Also, the China currency manipulation myth needs to stop. China has very little control over the valuation of the Yuan. They've been trying for months to prop it up and it's currently at its lowest point vs. the USD in almost ten years. If anyone wants to hit Trump for anything it should be his insistence on that being a fact when it is simply not true at all.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

You can't piss off China that badly, no matter how much you might want to. The relationship is definitely one of co-dependence, where they need us just as much as we need them, but you've got to tread carefully in those situations when there's a fundamental difference in cultures like in this case.

The big difference why talking to Iran and Cuba is OK is because neither of them has done shit to us in 30+ years and talking to either/both of them isn't going to piss off the country that is, at worst, the second most powerful in the world at this point. And both of those conversations were done through proper diplomatic channels rather than just a guy with no official authority yet picking up the phone.

Honestly, there's no reason that anybody can give why we shouldn't have a proper diplomatic relationship with Iran other than "scary Muslims" and there's no reason people can give for Cuba other than shit that happened in the 60s. Which, if we're being honest here, we mostly provoked.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

You can't piss off China that badly, no matter how much you might want to. The relationship is definitely one of co-dependence, where they need us just as much as we need them, but you've got to tread carefully in those situations when there's a fundamental difference in cultures like in this case.

The big difference why talking to Iran and Cuba is OK is because neither of them has done shit to us in 30+ years and talking to either/both of them isn't going to piss off the country that is, at worst, the second most powerful in the world at this point. And both of those conversations were done through proper diplomatic channels rather than just a guy with no official authority yet picking up the phone.

Honestly, there's no reason that anybody can give why we shouldn't have a proper diplomatic relationship with Iran other than "scary Muslims" and there's no reason people can give for Cuba other than shit that happened in the 60s. Which, if we're being honest here, we mostly provoked.

Like you said, it's co-dependence. This may rankle China but it would completely disrupt their economic system if they retaliated in any way on the United States for establishing diplomatic relations with Taiwan. They gotta sit there and eat it and I say that's a good thing. Gotta hit them back where you can at some point.

And with Iran, maybe their funding of terrorist organisations and anti-Israel groups is decent reasoning for not having proper diplomatic relations?

 

[forty_three]

And then there's this:
Washington gunman motivated by fake news 'Pizzagate' conspiracy

 

[forty_three]

*sigh*


They're just worried about jobs and the economy.



Edit: Oh, it gets better. That "person" is, or rather was, the mayor of a city in West Virginia.

 

[forty_three]

Trump’s team lying about Taiwan call? It reportedly took months to plan

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Like you said, it's co-dependence. This may rankle China but it would completely disrupt their economic system if they retaliated in any way on the United States for establishing diplomatic relations with Taiwan. They gotta sit there and eat it and I say that's a good thing. Gotta hit them back where you can at some point.

And with Iran, maybe their funding of terrorist organisations and anti-Israel groups is decent reasoning for not having proper diplomatic relations?

If we were consistent in employing that standard to all countries that do this...fine. But given our current mish-mash of bullshit where how much we're willing to negotiate and buddy buddy with them is pretty much based on how much oil they have, no.

And it's a well known fact that embargoes and the other type of stuff we used against them for 40 years doesn't do shit to the people in charge. It only hurts the average person on the street.

(I don't know your background, so please don't take this next comment as a "do you even lift bro?" kinda thing, because that's definitely not what I'm going for.)

I know a lot of people from Iran, and they're all good people. They laugh when we flip out in the media about something stupid Ahmadnejad (spelling?) said because they know that he was just a figurehead with no real power and that he didn't come close to representing the views of 99.9% of the population.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

If we were consistent in employing that standard to all countries that do this...fine. But given our current mish-mash of bullshit where how much we're willing to negotiate and buddy buddy with them is pretty much based on how much oil they have, no.

And it's a well known fact that embargoes and the other type of stuff we used against them for 40 years doesn't do shit to the people in charge. It only hurts the average person on the street.

(I don't know your background, so please don't take this next comment as a "do you even lift bro?" kinda thing, because that's definitely not what I'm going for.)

I know a lot of people from Iran, and they're all good people. They laugh when we flip out in the media about something stupid Ahmadnejad (spelling?) said because they know that he was just a figurehead with no real power and that he didn't come close to representing the views of 99.9% of the population.

Are there other state sponsors of terrorism that the US is buddy-buddy with? I know Saudi Arabia does some fucked up shit behind the scenes but even there people are starting to seriously question why we remain as close to that regime as we do (see the reaction to Obama's veto of the 9/11 bill and the overriding of that veto by congress). We're getting to a place where maybe we can open doors for people to change but at the same time we need to start closing doors to those who still think their resources, both natural and political, will earn them a free pass.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Are there other state sponsors of terrorism that the US is buddy-buddy with? I know Saudi Arabia does some fucked up shit behind the scenes but even there people are starting to seriously question why we remain as close to that regime as we do (see the reaction to Obama's veto of the 9/11 bill and the overriding of that veto by congress). We're getting to a place where maybe we can open doors for people to change but at the same time we need to start closing doors to those who still think their resources, both natural and political, will earn them a free pass.

Israel would be considered by many to be engaging in state-sponsored terrorism. Terrorism is such a nebulous term. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to foreign relations the USA (and most other western nations) don't have a leg to stand on if you want to discuss morality. "We" do business with some very violent governments (one would have to use that term lightly) around the world.

People tend to get pissy about places like Iran and Cuba because they aren't allowed to make any money off of these countries.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Israel would be considered by many to be engaging in state-sponsored terrorism. Terrorism is such a nebulous term. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to foreign relations the USA (and most other western nations) don't have a leg to stand on if you want to discuss morality. "We" do business with some very violent governments (one would have to use that term lightly) around the world.

People tend to get pissy about places like Iran and Cuba because they aren't allowed to make any money off of these countries.

Obama got pretty hard-line with Israel, at least until he extended their "defence" funding which is insane.

Anyway, I never said I was against opening up dialogues with Cuba and Iran, just that it's ridiculous that Obama did that and everybody applauded but Trump has a convo with the president of Taiwan and the top stories all weekend were how he's committing diplomatic suicide.

Screw the phone, I hope he makes a tremendous visit to Taipei soon.

 

[forty_three]

I know a lot of people from Iran, and they're all good people. They laugh when we flip out in the media about something stupid Ahmadnejad (spelling?) said because they know that he was just a figurehead with no real power and that he didn't come close to representing the views of 99.9% of the population.

It's pretty ironic that people who associate all inhabitants of a foreign country are the same one who are most averse to being associated with their own. At least until the elected a guy they could be "proud" of, that is.

No Russian I have ever met has been the big bad Russkie I was told so much about as a kid either. It's weird. It's almost like people are capable of thinking on their own.




Austria far-right candidate Norbert Hofer defeated in presidential poll - BBC News

So.... what could Austria possibly know about Ultra right wing nationalists that we don't?

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Obama got pretty hard-line with Israel, at least until he extended their "defence" funding which is insane.

Anyway, I never said I was against opening up dialogues with Cuba and Iran, just that it's ridiculous that Obama did that and everybody applauded but Trump has a convo with the president of Taiwan and the top stories all weekend were how he's committing diplomatic suicide.

Screw the phone, I hope he makes a tremendous visit to Taipei soon.

The hysteria about diplomatic suicide is a bit over the top, no doubt. But bear in mind this guys isn't even on the job yet. He'll have plenty of time to do things differently once his term begins. There's no reason to make waves before he can even do anything.

I wouldn't call it suicide but it's pretty dumb, IMO. No surprise there though.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Are there other state sponsors of terrorism that the US is buddy-buddy with? I know Saudi Arabia does some fucked up shit behind the scenes but even there people are starting to seriously question why we remain as close to that regime as we do (see the reaction to Obama's veto of the 9/11 bill and the overriding of that veto by congress). We're getting to a place where maybe we can open doors for people to change but at the same time we need to start closing doors to those who still think their resources, both natural and political, will earn them a free pass.

Saudi Arabia would be the most obvious, but we have political ties with virtually every country in the world. It's awfully hard to say which truly are state sponsors of terror because it can depend significantly on one's perspective.

In the eyes of Americans, you'd probably include Iran, Pakistan, N. Korea, and Saudi Arabia and would formerly have included Afghanistan and Iraq. But in the eyes of Iranians, it would probably be the US and Israel.

In the eyes of Pakistanis it would be the US and India. In the eyes of the North Koreans it would be well, almost everyone.

But for some reason, we have - diplomatically speaking - chosen only to call out Iran from that group.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

In other political news, our illustrious governor has finally conceded that he lost his re-election bid.

Says a lot about how unpopular he actually was when he managed to lose despite Donald Trump and our incumbent Republican Senator both winning by comfortable margins in NC.

Also says a lot that it was close as it was

 

[forty_three]

The hysteria about diplomatic suicide is a bit over the top, no doubt. But bear in mind this guys isn't even on the job yet. He'll have plenty of time to do things differently once his term begins. There's no reason to make waves before he can even do anything.

I wouldn't call it suicide but it's pretty dumb, IMO. No surprise there though.

Yeah, I agree that the talk of it being the biggest mistake ever are a bit much. People, and I mean a lot of people, want him to fail so they are latching onto everything as "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS", when all we have to do is put up the shields and wait.

Doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid thing to do. And the fact that he went out of his way to thumb his nose at the only other super power on earth takes it from simply stupid to colossally stupid.

It's almost like he wanted to make an example of how tough he would be and he got played by Taiwan. Led like a pawn.




Kind of like when Jarmo caved and traded Johansen. Every other GM took notice and tried to exploit him for the next year.